What type of design is this?

[OnceConvinced]

Presuming God is real and presuming demons and Satan is real...

Presuming God created them as angels and then the ones that rebelled became the demons, let by Satan himself. These fallen angels became so corrupt that they became completely evil, with no redeeming features at all.

So God created these beings and for whatever reason they became pure evil. Yet God, even if he didn't know for sure, had a good idea they would become that way. Yet he created them anyway, knowing they would be come corrupted and turn against him.

Or maybe he had no idea at all? Maybe their corruption was a complete surprise to him?

The thing is for them to become corrupt, they must have been designed in such a way that would allow them to become corrupt.

So....
What sort of design would this be?

Malevolent?
Incompetent?
Intelligent?

Please justify your answer.

[rikuoamero]

Also to answer 1213 whom I presume voted Intelligent Design to answer the OP, I link to the following very recent blog post

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexami ... christian/

In the comments, someone linked to another blog post, that had the following to say

"Now let’s ask Dostoyevsky’s advice. We find it in his great novel The Brothers Karamazov. Alyosha, a pious monk, attempts to win his profane brother Ivan back to Mother Church. But no sale. Ivan tells Alyosha that he cannot reconcile God’s ostensible justice with the manifest suffering of innocent children. The moment you offer some sophisticated rationalization for God allowing such atrocities, you are becoming his accomplice-after-the-fact. You are saying, in effect, “It’s okay with me! There’s a good reason for it, even if I can’t say what it is.� I think of this scene every time Cardinal Dolan or Philip Donahue disgraces himself by splitting hairs to try to mitigate the seriousness of the scandal. How can they live with themselves? And when His Popishness himself asks (cheap) forgiveness for the tsk-tsk “outrage� over the scandal, I think of Claude Rains in Casablanca: “I am shocked, shocked, to find pederasty going on here!� Also the moment in Moliere’s play Tartuffe when the live-in charlatan tearfully confesses his charlatanry, which of course only makes his gullible suckers adore him all the more."

So let's recap. OP says there is a God who created angels, some of whom were corrupted and became completely evil, became demons. This God created them in such a way that they could become evil.
OP asks is this a malevolent design, intelligent or incompetent.
1213 says intelligent. Now let's run with this. This is intelligent design. So 1213 is giving after-the-fact justifications for evil acts, much like the many sex scandals of Christian churches. 1213 says that those who are evil, do evil are serving his God's ends...so is giving an implicit after-the-fact approval to evil people and beings.

[Divine Insight]

Malevolent and incompetent design can be also intelligent design.

How do you define intelligence? Simply the ability to comprehend things like 2+2=4?

Also how could an incompetent designer not be malevolent if he knows better than to design something incompetently but does it anyway?

As far as I can see any intelligent designer who creates incompetent designs is already malevolent. Because if he's truly intelligent he should know better. What would be the motivation to create an incompetent design and then threaten to condemn that design to eternal torture for being incompetent?

If that's not the epitome of malevolence I can't imagine what would be.

[1213]

Is our modern justice system fascistic simply because a cop will arrest you for attempting to murder someone else, and a judge will imprison you?

Murder is also crime in the Bible and there is judgment for that. But attempting something is not same as murder and perhaps is not enough for judgement, especially because we may not really know what people are attempting.

Person who murders, gives others right to do the same to him. That is why death penalty for murder can be accepted. If person doesn’t want to be killed, he should not murder others.

Fascism means that people are not free and they should think as the ruler says, which usually seem to happen in socialistic systems.

[1213]

So let's recap. OP says there is a God who created angels, some of whom were corrupted and became completely evil, became demons. This God created them in such a way that they could become evil.
OP asks is this a malevolent design, intelligent or incompetent.

What does intelligent mean in your opinion? If machine that can calculate different things is called intelligent, what would be the reason to say that person who has created free persons, who are able to think and choose, is not intelligent?

If you think it would be more intelligent, if God would not have made you possible, it doesn’t mean He is not intelligent. But of course, you could think it would have been more intelligent to not make you possible, but would it have been good, would you have rather not existed?

People have ability to choose good and do good, that is why I think design is good. The problem is not in the design, but in what people choose. And all though you may think world would be better, if people would not be free, I think it would be more incompetent and not good.

1213 says intelligent. Now let's run with this. This is intelligent design. So 1213 is giving after-the-fact justifications for evil acts, much like the many sex scandals of Christian churches. 1213 says that those who are evil, do evil are serving his God's ends...so is giving an implicit after-the-fact approval to evil people and beings.

I don’t, and I think also Bible doesn’t approve evil actions. Giving freedom doesn’t mean it is ok to choose evil.

But evil also serve God, because they show God is good and greatest. God loves all, unlike humans, who usually love only those who are beneficial for them.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 14 by 1213]

If machine that can calculate different things is called intelligent, what would be the reason to say that person who has created free persons, who are able to think and choose, is not intelligent?

Here, 1213 is either trying to liken his God to a calculator...or wants a novel new definition for "intelligent" that applies only to his God.

If you think it would be more intelligent, if God would not have made you possible,

I'm not sure what this means. Not made me possible...is this supposed to be the end of that phrase? There's a language barrier here, so I'll have to ask for a rewrite please.

it doesn’t mean He is not intelligent.

OP is talking about the God of the Bible who, as Christian apologists regularly tell us, is omniscient. So it's not just intelligent, it's omni-intelligent.

But of course, you could think it would have been more intelligent to not make you possible, but would it have been good, would you have rather not existed?

1213, why are you talking about ME here? OP is talking about the God of the Bible who makes angels who end up corrupted and becoming evil demons.

People have ability to choose good and do good, that is why I think design is good. The problem is not in the design, but in what people choose. And all though you may think world would be better, if people would not be free, I think it would be more incompetent and not good.

It isn't the case that I "think world would be better if people would not be free". That isn't what is being argued about.
We're arguing about design, given an example and asked whether this design indicates the designer to be incompetent, malevolent or intelligent.
Choice here is not what is being argued.

I don’t, and I think also Bible doesn’t approve evil actions. Giving freedom doesn’t mean it is ok to choose evil.

The God of the Bible knows these angels are going to become evil corrupted demons. He knows these demons are going to do all sorts of evil acts.
Yet he creates them anyway, with the ability to become corrupted demons, knowing full well this is what will happen.
He is giving tacit approval for these acts. Any kind of post-hoc rationilization is just like Alyosha trying to win back Brother Ivan to Mother Church. At the end of the day, you are defending demons doing evil things and being allowed to be evil demons by their creator, you are defending a creator who creates demons.

But evil also serve God, because they show God is good and greatest.

Again, a post hoc approval and support for evil. Do you allow evil to exist in your world 1213? To go unchallenged, to run amok? If a gang of hoodlums trashes your building, do you just say to yourself "Evil serves God, it shows God to be good" and go about your day?
What about the opposite of that statement? Does Good serve God, because it shows God to be evil and not-great?

God loves all, unlike humans, who usually love only those who are beneficial for them.

Loves humans so much that he will create angels whom he knows will become evil demons.
This is like saying you love Microsoft who know that they create Windows 10 and release periodic updates that (every single time) end up causing intense problems for users of Win 10 (such as the most recent update that literally deleted files from user's hard drives).
Any post hoc rationlisation still means one is defending Microsoft and this practice.

[Divine Insight]

God loves all, unlike humans, who usually love only those who are beneficial for them.

"Usually"? Sorry, that won't do as an argument for God's supposedly human-superior love.

If there are any humans who love people that aren't beneficial for them then your argument that God loves all, "unlike humans", is not true.

I love everyone and wish everyone well. Including the criminally insane. It's true I don't care for the behavior of the criminally insane, but since they are criminally insane I feel sorry for them and wish that they could be made well.

It simply isn't within my abilities or power to heal them from their criminal insanity. However this should be no problem for an omnipotent creator who actually created these people from scratch.

Christianity boasts of an inept God. A God who can't even heal the criminally insane. Apparently the God of Christianity is as helpless and inept as little ol' me.

[Tcg]

God loves all, unlike humans, who usually love only those who are beneficial for them.

Not quite:

Malachi 1:3 "but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.�

Of course what will follow will be an explanation of how the word "hate" doesn't mean hate.

Too bad Esau isn't here to give his view of whether making his "mountains a desolation" and appointing "his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness" was hateful or not.

[jgh7]

I can't speak for angels, but similar circumstances apply to humans. Many of us do very evil things, whether by biblical or secular-humanistic standards. So ultimately the complaint here is that if there is a god, he must either be stupid or evil.

My stance on this view is that I'm in no position to be questioning a Being with the knowledge and power to create the universe and life itself. Maybe when I fully understand DNA, the mysteries of creating life, and such then I may have a foot to stand on in arguing with God about this.

But I guess you can still insist that He should have done a better job. But then what are you left with? You have no other choice to conclude that if a creator god exists, he is either stupid or evil. And when it boils down to it, I doubt any creator god who knows how to fashion all the laws of the universe and create life is stupid. So you must conclude that if god exists, he is evil.

I wonder if that is what atheists think. I know they think the Christian God is both malevolent and unintelligent, but wouldn't you have to conclude that about any possible god whatsoever given this reality?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 7 by Bust Nak]

It is less obvious that is a logical inconsistency. Can a human give birth to another human that is also themselves? Can you really imagine perfection making perfection or is to simply a sentence with no meaning like, 'a perfect human'?

[OnceConvinced]

Can God create God?

How can a created being not be flawed?

So then, God's works are not perfect then. So that would seem to indicate to me to be incompetent design.

A: Good not perfect. Good enough for sure.

Really? But it's full of evil. It's full of corruption. This world is a complete mess. That could only have come about due to incompetent design. Either that or God deliberately created things so that they could easily become corrupted. That would then be malevolent design.

Imagine if a human developer created a robot that went on to destroy the lives of billions of people and totally corrupted everything else he created. We may be able to say it's a cleverly designed robot, but can we really call it intelligent design? A robot that destroys peoples lives? A robot that messes up everything else the developer built?