What type of design is this?

[OnceConvinced]

Presuming God is real and presuming demons and Satan is real...

Presuming God created them as angels and then the ones that rebelled became the demons, let by Satan himself. These fallen angels became so corrupt that they became completely evil, with no redeeming features at all.

So God created these beings and for whatever reason they became pure evil. Yet God, even if he didn't know for sure, had a good idea they would become that way. Yet he created them anyway, knowing they would be come corrupted and turn against him.

Or maybe he had no idea at all? Maybe their corruption was a complete surprise to him?

The thing is for them to become corrupt, they must have been designed in such a way that would allow them to become corrupt.

So....
What sort of design would this be?

Malevolent?
Incompetent?
Intelligent?

Please justify your answer.

[OnceConvinced]

It didn't occur to him that if he created the angels with freewill, that they might exercise that freewill, rebel and attempt to destroy all of his creation.

That shows either incompetence or foolishness.

What is your proof that it [the fall] never occurred to HIM? As I said, HE knew all the possibilities of HIS actions and our actions...

This is a blatant misquote. You missed the first sentence entirely.

Here is what I said:

“It sounds like the god you are talking about did not really put a lot of thought into what he was doing. It didn't occur to him that if he created the angels with freewill, that they might exercise that freewill, rebel and attempt to destroy all of his creation.�

Why deliberately misquote me by missing that first sentence?

I’m discussing possibilities here. I’m not claiming anything to be the case for certain.

Your badly told story of the creation misses the mark for being anything other than a strawdog, all bark, no bite.

I have not told any stories. I’m simply discussing various possibilities But it’s interesting to see Christians dancing around the issues, trying to justify what is clearly bad creation.

[bluethread]

No, it is integral to this thread. If one is questioning the design of something, one must know for what purpose was it designed. Guns are not poorly designed, because they kill people. They are designed to kill things, including people and they do so quite well by design.

We’d have to get into a big debate on this one. How about we just skip that and go with what you think their purpose is?

I am not sure. So far, I have simply been arguing that the purpose is an integral part of the discussion. There are any number of purposes where a foil would be useful; to test, to provide a challenge, to provide a negative example . . .

Ok, let’s use the robot analogy. A creator creates a robot that has a freewill. He includes in it features to kill and destroy. The robot chooses to take advantage of those features and goes out and runs amok, attempting to destroy anything the creator created.

What type of design is that?

A design that includes both creation a destruction. Age of Empires is just such a games and I find it quite enjoyable.

Oh so, you would find it enjoyable if your robot went out on a rampage trying to destroy everything? All the people it kills in the process. That would be enjoyable to you?

No, because I am a person. I might design a robot to destroy other robots and I might find that destruction rather enjoyable. It depends on what I designed those other robots for and whether they have served their purposes.

What you seem to be suggesting is that this is all a game to God. We're all expendable. We are all there for him to order about, to send off into battles that can't possibly be won. We're here to be tortured all for God's entertainment.

That sounds like malevolent design to me.

I am suggesting that is a possibility. However, it might also be useful in other ways. As I have stated before, that would appear malevolent to that which is expendable. However, to Adonai and those who are not expendable, it might be helpful, and thus benevolent.

No, that would be a program that can undergo change. Change is not necessarily sabotage.

Are you suggesting that God designed the system so that the angels could made changes to it?

Possibly. This is all conjecture. However, it appears to me that the system is set up so we can make changes in it and there are other beings that can influence that, if not do it themselves.

If this world is just a big game to God, then that sounds very malevolent to me. Putting in it creatures that can suffer as a result is malevolent. At least nobody gets hurt when playing Age of Empires, because those pixels running around on the screen don’t suffer.

The robot wouldn't suffer either would it? It appears that you are now changing the analogy. That is fine. However, we now have to move to things that we create that do suffer. Can you think of anything? What about fetuses?

Since when are demons infiltrating the system and destroying it ever benevolent for anyone?

Ah, now we have a truly insightful question. Malevolent avatars can be benevolent in that they provide challenge to the game. This dilemma was explained by Mr. Smith in The Matrix. Humans are "programmed" to overcome adversity and creat order out of chaos. If there is no adversity of chaos, that would run counter to our "programming". Therefore, a certain amount of malevolence is indeed beneficial.

I’m thinking more along the lines of creating a game with real humans and then putting in real villains that can make them suffer. Let’s take the movie Saw for instance. Now I’m sure you will agree that Jigsaw is a way less evil enemy than Satan, but yet look at the horrors he is able to unleash on people in those movies. Imagine you’re a god who sets up a system like that?

Malevolence?

Of course yes. Putting REAL people into a REAL game where suffering takes place.

That’s what we’re talking about with God’s creations. Something way way worse than the Saw movies.

Why is that? Just because that is how you wish to see it, does not mean that is the case? You are establishing suffering as the purpose. Who says that is the purpose? That is why I do not indulge is slasher movies like SAW. They are neither entertaining nor instructive.

And how about all those that suffer and nothing good ever comes of it?

How do you know? You may not be aware of anything good coming of it, but that does not mean that is the case. That said, in almost every case, there is something to be learned from suffering.

But ok, this is all a game for God. That's what you're saying here. He's having fun watching all this suffering. He's being entertained. Got it. You can call it teaching lessons. I call it cruelty.

No, you have now taken my game analogy, which you have rejected as mere pixels, and made it my point. I never said that this is all a game to Adonai. I never said that He enjoys all of the suffering. I did say that suffering is part of the learning process. A five year old might consider it cruelty, when he has to suffer through doing chores before he gets a hamburger for lunch. Also, if one were to inform the five year old of what it took to make his hamburger, he might also consider that cruel. It's all a matter of degree and judgement, and the child is not really in the place to make a well informed judgment. I suggest that none of us are really in a place to make well informed decisions regarding the actions of a deity.

[1213]

That’s all very well, but God created them that way.

God has created people free, with abilities chose and do good. God has not created anyone evil, it is always choice of the being.

They then went on to attempt to destroy everything he created. God has to take some responsibility for that, don’t you think?

I think God takes responsibility of that He has created this opportunity. But there is no reason why He should take responsibility of evil actions that He has not done. Giving freedom is not evil action, unless maybe if you are a fascist freedom hater.

But interestingly, in Biblical point of view, this is just a short lesson. Nothing of this can destroy soul, which is the important thing. And as Bible shows, we should not worry about earthly things, because God can rise from death and give abundantly good after this first death.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

He said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

Even if we have to suffer short time here, it is not a problem, because this is not the real life and not the thing that is meant to last forever. But I understand if God haters worry, because they don’t have much hope.

Imagine if you created a robot and gave it a free will. It went out and attempted to destroy everything else you created. Do you think that’s wise to create something that would do that?

It depends on what is the reason and what are the consequences. In the case of God, it is not problem that He created this death, because He can protect people who want it and for example raise form death and fix everything.

If it can’t really destroy soul, it is not big problem. But, what do you think, God has also said that murderer deserves to die. Actually, all those who choose evil and do evil things, will die. And then you ask, why give the life at all, and the answer seems to be, God loves also those who hates Him, and that is why this is also given also for evil persons.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 103 by 1213]

God has created people free, with abilities chose and do good. God has not created anyone evil, it is always choice of the being.

You say we can choose to do good, we can choose to do evil. What factors are involved in us making those choices?

Why is it that we can't just choose to believe in God?

[ttruscott]

You say we can choose to do good, we can choose to do evil. What factors are involved in us making those choices?

Why is it that we can't just choose to believe in God?

[1213]

Why is it that we can't just choose to believe in God?

Why you can’t believe, what prevents you to choose it?

[brunumb]

Why is it that we can't just choose to believe in God?

Why you can’t believe, what prevents you to choose it?

People do not choose to believe. They are convinced or they are not convinced that something is true. If you are convinced that something is false, you cannot simply choose to believe it is true. Your brain processes the information it receives and reaches a conclusion. I'm not sure exactly how that works with indoctrination. To me, the majority of believers in gods were inculcated with their beliefs when they were unable to rationally evaluate what they were being taught.

Try it. Can you choose to genuinely believe that there are small green intelligent beings living on Mars? If not, why?

[1213]

People do not choose to believe.

I choose to believe.

Can you choose to genuinely believe that there are small green intelligent beings living on Mars? If not, why?

I have not enough reason to choose to believe that.

[brunumb]

People do not choose to believe.

I choose to believe.

Can you choose to genuinely believe that there are small green intelligent beings living on Mars? If not, why?

I have not enough reason to choose to believe that.

Please explain what you mean by "enough reason to choose to believe". I gave you a specific reason. By choosing to genuinely believe that there are small green intelligent beings living on Mars you will demonstrate that it is indeed possible to choose to believe. I maintain that it is not possible to just choose. Your brain needs to be convinced. Indoctrination into a belief essentially does that. You do not actually make a choice yourself. My brain has not been convinced that there is a god and I therefore do not believe. It is not possible for me to simply choose otherwise.

[Bust Nak]

Why you can’t believe, what prevents you to choose it?

My natural is preventing me from choosing to believe, I lack the ability to choose to believe anything.

I have not enough reason to choose to believe that.

Oh? Simply choose to believe there are enough reasons to choose to believe there are small green intelligent beings living on Mars. What's the problem?