Problems with the Problem of Pain

[liamconnor]

The supposal of an omnipotent, omniscient and good God is often attacked on the grounds of the presence of pain in the world. Such attacks paint the world as experienced so terrible, that one wonders why there are not more suicides: like 99% of humanity!

Yet every talk I have ever had with any atheist has revealed a relish in living.

It is as if there is just enough pain the world to reject theism; but not enough to go out and truly have a good time with friends over a pint of beer.

How do we reconcile the painting of reality made by atheists (who use the argument of the problem of evil: not all do) and the lives they live? Is this philosophical hypocrisy? Is it hypocritical to denounce a good god on the grounds that people are starving in Somalia while typing on a laptop and eating a burger from Wendy's?

(I suppose I should add that any atheist who adds his bit obviously acknowledges his or her access to a computer! and the internet! to the health and education that enables him or her to engage in this debate!)

[Divine Insight]

…
Also, this isn't Biblical. There is nothing in the story of Adam and Eve where God sat down with Adam and Eve and explained to them that they could have a choice of learning things an easy way versus a hard was and they chose the hard way...

Bible tells God was with the people and told them many things, also about the tree. There was no reason why they could not have asked from God directly all things they want to know.

It's not the Biblical story to pretend that just because something isn't in the Bible you are free to write it in yourself.

If there is important information missing from God's book, then God has failed to make his message to humanity clear.

It's not the Biblical story that Adam and Eve were asked whether they would like to learn things the easy way or the hard way. In fact, if you need to pretend that this is the Biblical story then obviously you aren't accepting the Bible as it is written but instead you have decided to create your own personal religious mythology.

And finally, why should we care what Adam and Eve did anyway? They don't speak for us.

The accusations you make based on this religion would need to apply to all humans, not just Adam and Eve.

And they don't apply to me. Therefore I can know that the religoin of your choice is false. Whether you can see this or not is totally irrelevant.

Like I say, in logic, one counter-example is all that is required to show that an assertion is false.

I'm certainly not the only counter-example to your apologetic accusations against all humans. But even if I was the only counter-example, that would be sufficient any any case.

So you have totally destroyed any chance for your favorite religion to be true. You have guaranteed that your religion is necessarily false. There's no going back now.

[1213]

If there is important information missing from God's book, then God has failed to make his message to humanity clear.

The message in the Bible can be clear, even if there is not all possible knowledge. Clarity doesn’t require that everything needs to be known.

Basically, God’s message in the Bible is, love your neighbor as yourself. What is unclear about that to you?

It's not the Biblical story that Adam and Eve were asked whether they would like to learn things the easy way or the hard way. In fact, if you need to pretend that this is the Biblical story then obviously you aren't accepting the Bible as it is written but instead you have decided to create your own personal religious mythology.

Bible tells Eve wanted to know like God knows. It is possible that she didn’t understand what it really means.

So you have totally destroyed any chance for your favorite religion to be true. You have guaranteed that your religion is necessarily false. There's no going back now.

You sound desperate, because you really have nothing that would destroy Bible to be true. But you should be careful, the claims you make, can ruin your credibility.

[Divine Insight]

Basically, God’s message in the Bible is, love your neighbor as yourself. What is unclear about that to you?

Then what is all the junk about stoning sinners to death?

Also, why would it be necessary for God to have humans brutally crucify himself and hold that over the heads of humans if the only message is to love others as you love yourself?

I already love others as I love myself. So according to you I'm already in 100% compliance with this God's message even though I don't believe in the Biblical stories or that Jesus was "The Christ", etc.

Bible tells Eve wanted to know like God knows. It is possible that she didn’t understand what it really means.

What Eve may have or have not understood has nothing to do with me, or anyone else. That would be between God and Eve. Also, if Eve wasn't bright enough to understand something, who's fault would that be? That could only be God's fault for not giving Eve a brain capable of understanding the simplest of things.

So are you suggesting that God created Eve as an idiot? What kind of a dirty trick would that have been?

The apology that people aren't bright enough to understand their creator is a failed apology. Only the creator can be held responsible for how intelligent or stupid his creations are. He would have been the one who designed their brains.

You sound desperate, because you really have nothing that would destroy Bible to be true. But you should be careful, the claims you make, can ruin your credibility.

So far every apology you have given for Biblical mythology has failed. Trying to suggest that this could somehow result in affecting my credibility is hilarious.

Here is your argument thus far.

1. The message of the Bible is to love your neighbor as yourself. Period.

That's fine, but then why was God commanding men to stone sinners to death. And why would God need to have his own corrupt priests call for the brutal crucifixion of God's "only begotten Son" which was supposedly God himself incarnate.

2. Eve was too stupid to be able to understand God's simple message to humans.

Now you have a God who created a stupid Eve who isn't even bright enough to understand simple ideas.

So now, unless you want to give Eve credit for designing and creating her own brain, you end up with a God who created a stupid Eve and then expected her to be able to understand simple things when apparently she couldn't.

I don't think my credibility is at stake here. Your apologies just aren't holding water.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 112 by 1213]

Basically, God’s message in the Bible is, love your neighbor as yourself. What is unclear about that to you?

Basically, the message in the Bible is, love your neighbor as yourself. God has been inserted as an unverified attribution for the message. What is unclear about that to you?

[1213]

Then what is all the junk about stoning sinners to death?

If evil people would be allowed to live eternally, they would make life eternal suffering for all. That is why death can be seen as good thing and loving thing, at least for those who would otherwise suffer.

Also, why would it be necessary for God to have humans brutally crucify himself and hold that over the heads of humans if the only message is to love others as you love yourself?

God is not crucified according to the Bible. But what Jesus did, he showed example of love. He used his life to serve people, even though it meant he will be murdered.

Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:13

But that should not be understood as that the death would be the point, the point was, Jesus used his life for us. And by dying he showed that we should not fear death, it is not the end. And that is what gave courage to his disciples to continue fearlessly.

And about the rest of your post, I hope readers can see the difference of what I have said and what you claim I have said.

[Divine Insight]

Then what is all the junk about stoning sinners to death?

If evil people would be allowed to live eternally, they would make life eternal suffering for all. That is why death can be seen as good thing and loving thing, at least for those who would otherwise suffer.

Why should that be the case?

You must have an extremely puny God if he has limited space in his heaven. Even within this universe itself he could simply send the evil people to the far reaches of the universe. They aren't going to bother anyone but themselves there.

And why did your inept God create evil people for in the first place. You are already demanding that your Creator God is necessarily inept when it comes to creating humans.

And besides, what would evil people have to do with me?

Again, I'm not an evil person, therefore the arguments you make for this religion doesn't apply to me anyway. You seem to keep forgetting about that.

The religion you are supporting requires that ALL HUMANS are evil, without exception, including YOU and ME.

Apparently you must have bought into that one. I see no reason to buy into such and utterly absurd accusation that I know to be false. I am not an evil person.

Are you?

Also, why would it be necessary for God to have humans brutally crucify himself and hold that over the heads of humans if the only message is to love others as you love yourself?

God is not crucified according to the Bible. But what Jesus did, he showed example of love. He used his life to serve people, even though it meant he will be murdered.

Again, a totally inept God. This is what your entire theology rests upon. Your God cannot do any better than a mere mortal man.

Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:13

Soldiers, police, firemen, paramedics, and many other people have done as much. Therefore the Jesus you argue for isn't any better than many mere mortal humans.

But that should not be understood as that the death would be the point, the point was, Jesus used his life for us. And by dying he showed that we should not fear death, it is not the end. And that is what gave courage to his disciples to continue fearlessly.

But Jesus didn't die. If you don't stay dead, then you can't claim to have died.

Not only that, but if the wages of sin is death, then the check bounced when Jesus was resurrected.

Jesus ended up ascending to heaven to have everlasting life himself. Every Christian's dream!

Therefore the idea that Jesus paid the wages of sin is absolute nonsense. The only way he could have done that is if he had stayed dead.

And about the rest of your post, I hope readers can see the difference of what I have said and what you claim I have said.

Hey, your argument is that Eve "misunderstood" God.

There is no excuse for Eve to misunderstand God short of being too stupid to understand God. And if she's that stupid, no one can be blamed for that other than the person who designed her brain.

So who designed Eve's brain?

You tell me.

Your argument fail. Period.

[1213]

You must have an extremely puny God if he has limited space in his heaven. Even within this universe itself he could simply send the evil people to the far reaches of the universe.

Yes, I think the place is called hell. If people are not destroyed in hell, but live there eternally, it is a place where godless people can live and do what they want. And they make it suffering for themselves. I believe it would be too cruel and that is why I think people that go to hell, are destroyed.

And why did your inept God create evil people for in the first place.

My God didn’t create evil people. He created free people and then some of them rejected God and chose evil.

The religion you are supporting requires that ALL HUMANS are evil, without exception, including YOU and ME.

I don’t see any reason to think that is true. There is nothing in Bible that requires that all people are evil.

But Jesus didn't die. If you don't stay dead, then you can't claim to have died.

That is like saying, you didn’t speak, if you are not speaking all the time. Or “you didn’t fall, if you don’t remain fallen always�. Ridiculous idea in my opinion you have.

Therefore the idea that Jesus paid the wages of sin is absolute nonsense. The only way he could have done that is if he had stayed dead.

That is why it is wiser to remain in the teachings that Bible has and not follow the doctrines of men.

[Bust Nak]

Yes, I think the place is called hell. If people are not destroyed in hell, but live there eternally, it is a place where godless people can live and do what they want. And they make it suffering for themselves.

Why would we? Do you believe that everything nice that have ever came from non-believers would not have existed if not for God working behind the scene in our lives?

My God didn’t create evil people. He created free people and then some of them rejected God and chose evil.

Free people would by default choose God and reject evil though, so something went wrong. What went wrong?

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 117 by 1213]

My God didn’t create evil people. He created free people and then some of them rejected God and chose evil.

I do not believe in your God, but I have not chosen evil. I am not an evil person. I do not sin like so many Christian believers. So why would your God of infinite love see fit to have me suffer for eternity in hell or simply destroy me? Why do repentant sinners who are no better than me deserve eternity in heaven?

[1213]

My God didn’t create evil people. He created free people and then some of them rejected God and chose evil.

Free people would by default choose God and reject evil though, so something went wrong. What went wrong?

I don’t see why free people would choose good by default. Free people can make their own opinion and like whatever they like. I think it was not wrong to give freedom.