Can God have free will?

[amortalman]

Christians claim that their God created mankind with free will and that God, himself, has free will. But how can that be? If God knows everything, as they claim, he knows his future decisions. Therefore, he is bound by those decisions and is not free to change them.

Before God supposedly brought on a great flood to destroy wicked humanity and wicked animals it is written: "The Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and he was grieved in his heart." (Gen.6:6 NASB). We know what happened next. And the reason comes from the Lord himself, "...for I am sorry that I have made them." (Gen.6:7 NASB). Why would an omniscient God create living beings that he would later regret and have to blot out?



Topic for debate: Is the Christian God omniscient? If he is, how can he also have free will?

[1213]

Christians claim that their God created mankind with free will and that God, himself, has free will. But how can that be? If God knows everything, as they claim, he knows his future decisions. Therefore, he is bound by those decisions and is not free to change them.

But those decisions have been made freely already and it can be known already that person doesn’t want to change them.

Before God supposedly brought on a great flood to destroy wicked humanity and wicked animals it is written: "The Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and he was grieved in his heart." (Gen.6:6 NASB). We know what happened next. And the reason comes from the Lord himself, "...for I am sorry that I have made them." (Gen.6:7 NASB). Why would an omniscient God create living beings that he would later regret and have to blot out?

I believe the reason is that there will be also good things, like all the righteous people who will get eternal life. it is possible to be sorry, even if one knows things will go well.

Topic for debate: Is the Christian God omniscient? If he is, how can he also have free will?

Free will is not in contradiction with omniscience. I think your problem is that you think actions come before will. If person know future, he also knows if he wants to freely change something. Future doesn’t define actions, actions define the future and omniscient can know them already.

[amortalman]

Christians claim that their God created mankind with free will and that God, himself, has free will. But how can that be? If God knows everything, as they claim, he knows his future decisions. Therefore, he is bound by those decisions and is not free to change them.

Topic for debate: Is the Christian God omniscient? If he is, how can he also have free will?

You are using the pagan Greek definition of omniscience brought into the Church by the Greek Fathers....sigh. It claims that GOD knows everything that can be known from eternity past to eternity future.

Yep, that's a pretty good statement of what Christians believe!

This is obviously a blasphemy because it implies that HE knew who would end in hell before they were created BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! The GOD Of loving righteousness and justice would, could, never do this.

Now you see why I don't believe in the god of the bible.

Your idea of omniscience is not in line with the commonly held belief of Christians. If you disagree with the so-called pagan definition you stated above then you might be the one guilty of blasphemy according to mainline Christianity and mainline Christianity is who I address in the OP, not the vague, contradictory claims of fringe sects.

So we look to scripture and we find Acts 15:18 (KJV) that implies that HE knows all HIS works, usually deemed to refer to HIS creation of things by decrees of creation, since the foundation of the world. This implies that if HE did not create it , HE doesn't know it.

Your argument falls apart here. The Bible explicitly claims that God created everything: "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:2) Furthermore, for God not to know everything makes him less than omniscient.

That means that if when HE gave us our free will HE did not create the results of our free will decisions then HE would not know those results until we chose ot make them real.

Again, not knowing those results makes him less than omniscient (all-knowing).

[ttruscott]

Yep, that's a pretty good statement of what Christians believe!
...
Now you see why I don't believe in the god of the bible.

A third option is to believe neither interpretation and to look at other theologies like PCE.

Your idea of omniscience is not in line with the commonly held belief of Christians. If you disagree with the so-called pagan definition you stated above then you might be the one guilty of blasphemy according to mainline Christianity

...I am guilty of heterodoxy and maybe some heresy but my worship of YHWH is higher than those who think HE creates evil or does evil for no reason.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 10 by marco]

Ha! As ridiculous as they are they do in many ways surpass Shakespeare's Hamlet with their billions of fanatic believers throughout history and the dogged refusal of ancient fire-side tales to die in our post-modern world. Shows the power of generational influence on young minds. I don't know about your neck of the woods but in the USA church membership has been declining for years. Maybe someday, Marco, there will be no one left to poison the children.

[ttruscott]

So we look to scripture and we find Acts 15:18 (KJV) that implies that HE knows all HIS works, usually deemed to refer to HIS creation of things by decrees of creation, since the foundation of the world. This implies that if HE did not create it, HE doesn't know it.

Your argument falls apart here. The Bible explicitly claims that God created everything: "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:2)

Umm, your claim here is exactly what Acts 15:18 said as I reported. And HE knows everything there is to know about that because HE created them. If you want Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. to refer to the creation of our free will decisions go for it but I will not follow you into that blasphemy. And the word evil in Isa 45:7 is not moral evil but disaster, calamity etc in response to moral evil.

It also amazes me how strongly non-believers suddenly become in supporting the false ideology of the Greek definition when they use that definition to denigrate our LORD. No one I know cares if HE does not fit the Greek definition of omniscience, we know HE is all knowing about HIS creation.

Furthermore, for God not to know everything makes him less than omniscient.

That means that if when HE gave us our free will HE did not create the results of our free will decisions then HE would not know those results until we chose ot make them real.

Again, not knowing those results makes him less than omniscient (all-knowing).

Only by your flawed definition which means nothing to me at all. And HE is all knowing about HIS creation, just NOT about what HE allowed us to create, the results of our true free will decisions.

[amortalman]

Christians claim that their God created mankind with free will and that God, himself, has free will. But how can that be? If God knows everything, as they claim, he knows his future decisions. Therefore, he is bound by those decisions and is not free to change them.

But those decisions have been made freely already and it can be known already that person doesn’t want to change them.

Seems to me God wanted to change his decision about creating a man and a woman because he was sorry he created them in the first place.

Before God supposedly brought on a great flood to destroy wicked humanity and wicked animals it is written: "The Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and he was grieved in his heart." (Gen.6:6 NASB). We know what happened next. And the reason comes from the Lord himself, "...for I am sorry that I have made them." (Gen.6:7 NASB). Why would an omniscient God create living beings that he would later regret and have to blot out?

I believe the reason is that there will be also good things, like all the righteous people who will get eternal life. it is possible to be sorry, even if one knows things will go well.

Maybe in the human realm, but with omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God? And how is it "going well" when this all-knowing God will knowingly cast the vast majority of people he has created (and in supposedly responsible for) into the lake of fire? Did all these people with full knowledge of their decision choose to go to hell? A ridiculous notion.

Topic for debate: Is the Christian God omniscient? If he is, how can he also have free will?

Free will is not in contradiction with omniscience. I think your problem is that you think actions come before will. If person know future, he also knows if he wants to freely change something. Future doesn’t define actions, actions define the future and omniscient can know them already.

No. I do not believe that. There can be no action by a thoughtful being without a will to initiate that action. If a god knows the future results of his actions why would he burden himself with having to change those actions? Knowing all he would have no reason to change his mind about anything. But in the Bible, you have a god who is capricious and can b persuaded to change his mind.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 13 by ttruscott]

Yes, that is another option, and there are hundreds of options to look at. But how will I know which is the true one?

[FWI]

[Replying to amortalman]

Is the Christian God omniscient? If he is, how can he also have free will?

The first thing that needs to be determined is: What's the definition of free-will according to the bible? Since, you didn't give an explanation of yours, I'll give mine: Free-will is the option to make decisions based on what an individual considers to be right or wrong, even though God has clearly outlined the types of decisions, which are the most beneficial for His created beings.

Thus, when we consider God, He makes decisions based on whatever He desires. That's why He's called God. However, these decisions "are not" based on the same parameters that human or angel decisions are guided by: right or wrong choices. In God's realm every decision He makes is the right one. Hence, God's decisions can't be rightfully judged by the created. They are what they are, like it or not…There are no wrong decisions made by God.

So, God doesn't have or need free-will, as outlined by my supplied definition of the term. The only ones that free-will applies to, are the angels and humans.

Therefore, God is omniscient! Yet, He has also chosen not to use all of the abilities that this term affords Him. He only uses them, when and if it is necessary, according to His will and plan. God, surely knows the end of the story, but He chooses not to know or determine many of the detailed stories along the way to the end, until they happen. This seems reasonable, because it would keep existence interesting, maybe this is why God allowed all things to come to be in the first place. For His pleasure! Unfortunately, the balance between pleasure and displeasure seems to be tilting in the wrong direction in today's modern societies. This could indicate (to us) that the end is getting closer…

[amortalman]

So we look to scripture and we find Acts 15:18 (KJV) that implies that HE knows all HIS works, usually deemed to refer to HIS creation of things by decrees of creation, since the foundation of the world. This implies that if HE did not create it, HE doesn't know it.

Your argument falls apart here. The Bible explicitly claims that God created everything: "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:2)

Umm, your claim here is exactly what Acts 15:18 said as I reported.

The two verses say basically the same thing. That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not claiming that the Christian god created the resulting acts of our decisions. Only that he has prior knowledge (according to orthodox Christianity) of every decision, every act, every cause and effect, and every hair on your head.

And HE knows everything there is to know about that because HE created them. If you want Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. to refer to the creation of our free will decisions go for it but I will not follow you into that blasphemy.

Again, orthodox Christianity claims that God has KNOWLEDGE of all things, even that the majority of humanity he created he would send to hell for their unbelief. You have stated that the God of loving righteousness and justice would never create people he knew would go to hell. I agree 100% and that's one of the problems with what the Bible teaches and one of the reasons I believe it is of human origin. Your outrage at this prospect does not change what orthodox Christianity teaches.

It also amazes me how strongly non-believers suddenly become in supporting the false ideology of the Greek definition when they use that definition to denigrate our LORD. No one I know cares if HE does not fit the Greek definition of omniscience, we know HE is all knowing about HIS creation.

If you are offended by opposing views of your theology you probably shouldn't debate non-believers. When you jump in with dogmatic statements in response to the OP I am obliged to respond. If my responses seem to denigrate your lord that simply comes with the territory. I don't believe in your lord.

Furthermore, for God not to know everything makes him less than omniscient.

That means that if when HE gave us our free will HE did not create the results of our free will decisions then HE would not know those results until we chose ot make them real.

Again, not knowing those results makes him less than omniscient (all-knowing).

Only by your flawed definition which means nothing to me at all. And HE is all knowing about HIS creation, just NOT about what HE allowed us to create, the results of our true free will decisions.

In the OP I wondered how Christians can maintain that their God could possess free will and omniscience at the same time. I didn't feel I had to define omniscience to Biblically educated Christians. If you want to claim that the orthodox Christian definition is blasphemy you certainly have that prerogative. But if we can't get on the same page with definitions we might as well argue against a wall.

This exchange we're having just goes to show one major problem with religion. Even among themselves, religionists can't agree on much. Dan Barker asked the question, "Can you think of one book that is more confusing as the Bible?" This was in response to 1 Cor. 14:33 which says, "God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all churches of the saints." Yet Christians claim that God is the author of the Bible.

According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world. So I ask again, which one is the true religion? The answer is most likely none of them.

[amortalman]

[Replying to amortalman]

Is the Christian God omniscient? If he is, how can he also have free will?

The first thing that needs to be determined is: What's the definition of free-will according to the bible? Since, you didn't give an explanation of yours, I'll give mine: Free-will is the option to make decisions based on what an individual considers to be right or wrong, even though God has clearly outlined the types of decisions, which are the most beneficial for His created beings.

Sounds like an armchair definition of free will, and not a very good one I'm afraid. Elsewhere in this thread, I believe I gave a definition that I feel is more precise which is, "The capacity of a conscious mind to make decisions and choices without any external constraints or coercion." I would say that when Paul was struck with blindness by the exalted Jesus it was a bit of external coercion involved. But maybe that's venturing too far from the OP.

Thus, when we consider God, He makes decisions based on whatever He desires. That's why He's called God.

Evidently, he desires a lot of blood. Read the Biblical history of Israel.

However, these decisions "are not" based on the same parameters that human or angel decisions are guided by: right or wrong choices. In God's realm every decision He makes is the right one. Hence, God's decisions can't be rightfully judged by the created. They are what they are, like it or not…There are no wrong decisions made by God.

No wrong decisions? Not according to Genesis Ch. 6-7, The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.�

So, God doesn't have or need free-will, as outlined by my supplied definition of the term. The only ones that free-will applies to, are the angels and humans.

So convenient that you supplied your own definition of free-will. But your theology doesn't jive with orthodox Christianity. The definition I provided comes from a Christian website which goes on to say, "God has a mind and is conscious; He has the capacity to make decisions and choose (He has volition); He does not answer to any authority, is not limited by any external constraints, and cannot be coerced. Therefore, based on this definition, we can say, yes, God certainly possesses free will." In my 15 years as an evangelical Christian, I've never heard of or read any Biblical teaching that refuted that God has free-will.

Therefore, God is omniscient!

Therefore what? Since God doesn't need or have free-will he is therefore omniscient? Come on!

Yet, He has also chosen not to use all of the abilities that this term affords Him. He only uses them, when and if it is necessary, according to His will and plan. God, surely knows the end of the story, but He chooses not to know or determine many of the detailed stories along the way to the end, until they happen. This seems reasonable, because it would keep existence interesting, maybe this is why God allowed all things to come to be in the first place. For His pleasure!

Have you ever asked God what pleasure he gets out of watching kids die of cancer? Or watching little girls and boys brutally raped, strangled, and dumped like so much garbage? Most people are a hundred times more compassionate than the god of the Bible.

Unfortunately, the balance between pleasure and displeasure seems to be tilting in the wrong direction in today's modern societies. This could indicate (to us) that the end is getting closer…

After allowing so much anguish and suffering over the span of human history I would hope that he would by now have his fill of it. Of course, there is one final act of unthinkable barbarism this god has to fulfill. The casting into the lake of fire of all those millions of unfortunate souls who never had a chance to hear about sweet Jesus. Yes, the end might be near. But not the one you hope for. It just might be the end of ancient superstitions and myths hatched around some nomads campfire.