Can God have free will?

[amortalman]

Christians claim that their God created mankind with free will and that God, himself, has free will. But how can that be? If God knows everything, as they claim, he knows his future decisions. Therefore, he is bound by those decisions and is not free to change them.

Before God supposedly brought on a great flood to destroy wicked humanity and wicked animals it is written: "The Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and he was grieved in his heart." (Gen.6:6 NASB). We know what happened next. And the reason comes from the Lord himself, "...for I am sorry that I have made them." (Gen.6:7 NASB). Why would an omniscient God create living beings that he would later regret and have to blot out?



Topic for debate: Is the Christian God omniscient? If he is, how can he also have free will?

[1213]

And how is it "going well" when this all-knowing God will knowingly cast the vast majority of people he has created (and in supposedly responsible for) into the lake of fire? Did all these people with full knowledge of their decision choose to go to hell? A ridiculous notion.

All is going well, because we have this opportunity and people can become righteous and get eternal life. Good thing is also that people can reject good and truth and choose hell.

Choosing hell is same as choosing to reject good, truth and love.

… Knowing all he would have no reason to change his mind about anything. But in the Bible, you have a god who is capricious and can b persuaded to change his mind.

I don’t think His mind changes. Actions of humans change and then there will be other result.

[amortalman]

And how is it "going well" when this all-knowing God will knowingly cast the vast majority of people he has created (and in supposedly responsible for) into the lake of fire? Did all these people with full knowledge of their decision choose to go to hell? A ridiculous notion.

All is going well, because we have this opportunity and people can become righteous and get eternal life. Good thing is also that people can reject good and truth and choose hell.

Who are "we"? People who were born in Christians nations? If you had been born in India you would probably be Hindu or Islamic in Syria, Iraq, and Iran. Did it go well with the millions of people who have lived and died having never had the opportunity to hear about your Savior?

Choosing hell is same as choosing to reject good, truth and love.

Atheists and agnostics do not reject good, most embrace it, as they do truth and love. So are they choosing hell? You really don't need a god to show you how to be a good, decent, caring person.

… Knowing all he would have no reason to change his mind about anything. But in the Bible, you have a god who is capricious and can b persuaded to change his mind.

I don’t think His mind changes. Actions of humans change and then there will be other result.

"So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:14, NASB). There it is in black and white. This verse says exactly what it means to say. God changed his mind.

[marco]

Maybe someday, Marco, there will be no one left to poison the children.

And yet there is a threat of millstones around necks if we do poison children. The stories themselves are no worse than some of the fairy tales children read; bad Abraham wants to murder his son; bad Goliath gets his head cut off; bad Eve steals an apple. It is the extracted messages that are poison: people are abject sinners, slaves, sheep, worthy of hell. Love is having your son tortured and killed.

I don't for a moment suppose that the playwrights of the OT thought about free will. To them God was a giant from the sky, someone to keep on their side with dead sheep and cattle. It is amazing that post-Einstein man still reads and heeds the tales he thought were childish. Jehovah has free will if his servants give him it. He may also have a sheepskin coat.

[marco]

Choosing hell is same as choosing to reject good, truth and love.

There are very, very, very few people on earth who reject good, truth and love. Some people commit crimes sometimes. Those who reject Christianity, with all its blemishes and absurdities, are CHOOSING truth; they may also show love to their fellow humans and benefit humanity. Sometimes the greatest hatred comes from those who serve a savage God.

I don’t think His mind changes. Actions of humans change and then there will be other result.

Of course he changes his mind. In Genesis 18 we have the idiotic tale of Abraham getting God to change his mind. Despite the tale's stupidity, it was adopted by Muhammad when he went on his flying horse to see God and reduce the silly prayer prescription from 100 prayers a day. God had forgotten people need to eat, work and sleep. God changed his mind several times and the lucky Muslims ended up having to pray only five times every day.

I think these stories illustrate that God has come from the heads of humans. He can have free will or he might not have it, depending on the day of the week.

[1213]

Who are "we"? People who were born in Christians nations? If you had been born in India you would probably be Hindu or Islamic in Syria, Iraq, and Iran. Did it go well with the millions of people who have lived and died having never had the opportunity to hear about your Savior?

I meant all people, we all could be or become righteous. If one has not heard of Jesus, he still could be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

If I would be the same person, I don’t think I would be Hindu or Muslim, because I think they are not very reasonable.

Atheists and agnostics do not reject good, most embrace it, as they do truth and love. So are they choosing hell? You really don't need a god to show you how to be a good, decent, caring person.

I think good and decent people don’t lie.

But it may be that some atheists are really righteous. I just don’t see any good and honest reason for them to claim God doesn’t exist.

"So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:14, NASB). There it is in black and white. This verse says exactly what it means to say. God changed his mind.

I think God didn’t change His mind. I think he saw there is still enough good to let them continue. And that is why there was not reason to destroy them. Unrighteous will be consumed every time, but if they are or repent and become righteous, situation has changed and God doesn’t destroy righteous people.

By what the Bible tells, Gods thought is:
1. Righteous will live
2. Unrighteous will die.

That doesn’t change. But the status of a person may change and then changes also the result.

[EPH2:8]

Many (if not most) Christian apologists claim that Free Will is the explanation for the problem of evil. They claim that God gave us free will, which allows us to chose evil. And they also claim that if we were restricted from choosing evil then we would be nothing more than "robots" that do not have free will.

The problem with this is that then this argument must also apply to God. If God can never choose evil, then God cannot have free will. God himself must then be a programmed "robot" that does not have the freedom to chose evil.

This is not my argument. This is the argument of Christian apologists. They point to free will as the reason humans can choose evil. But the moment they do this they shoot themselves in their own theological foot, becasue now if they want to claim that their God never chooses evil, then there God cannot have free will.

So this is why according to many Christian apologists their God cannot have free will.

Of course, they most likely don't realize that this is the corner they have painted themselves into. But it is. As long as they continue to use free will as the excuse for why human choose evil, then they have already shot themselves in their own theological foot. Even if they don't realize their folly.

[/quote]

If there is a row of apples, infinite in number, (I understand a physical I infinite is not actually possible) and a row of oranges infinite in number lined up next to each other. IF I go down the rows and make a decision to choose an apple as opposed to an orange each time does this negate my ability to choose?

[amortalman]

Who are "we"? People who were born in Christians nations? If you had been born in India you would probably be Hindu or Islamic in Syria, Iraq, and Iran. Did it go well with the millions of people who have lived and died having never had the opportunity to hear about your Savior?

I meant all people, we all could be or become righteous. If one has not heard of Jesus, he still could be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

These five verses do not go far enough to assure salvation according to evangelical Christianity. You can argue that evangelicals have it all wrong and I'm not here to defend them or any other denomination. What I want to point out is that even among Christians there is serious disagreement on some major theological questions. You would think that God if there was one, would be able to leave us a book that wasn't so confusing, especially when it comes to what is required to avoid hell and live in paradise forever.
Southern Baptist theology and that of other evangelical denominations believe Romans 10:9-10 lays out the conditions of salvation pretty good:

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." —Romans 10:9-10, ESV

These verses and others such as John 1:12 and 17:3 preclude anyone how hasn't heard of Jesus. Therefore, according to the teaching of a very large portion of Christendom, those unfortunate souls who never had an opportunity to hear about Jesus will not only be barred from heaven but will spend eternity in a very unpleasant place.

If I would be the same person, I don’t think I would be Hindu or Muslim, because I think they are not very reasonable.

The point I'm making is that the odds of anyone becoming a Christian who is born Hindu, Muslim, Buddist, et al are pretty slim. We generally follow the beliefs of our parents, friends, and the predominant religion of our region.

Atheists and agnostics do not reject good, most embrace it, as they do truth and love. So are they choosing hell? You really don't need a god to show you how to be a good, decent, caring person.

I think good and decent people don’t lie.

Probably not pathologically. But what's your point? Are you saying that atheists are all liars? Do you think Christians or even those who are considered righteous never lie? King David told some whoppers.

But it may be that some atheists are really righteous.

Not in the biblical sense of righteousness, no.

I just don’t see any good and honest reason for them to claim God doesn’t exist.

I can't speak for all Atheists because I'm more of an Agnostic. I don't make any claims about the nonexistence of God or a god. I simply don't know. Many atheists feel this way as well. So we are not the one making the claim. Religionists are claiming there is a God. It's always up to the one making the claim to furnish the proof. And there is zero evidence that there is some super wizard residing in the cosmos letting his former chief of staff run amok on this planet creating havoc.

"So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:14, NASB). There it is in black and white. This verse says exactly what it means to say. God changed his mind.

I think God didn’t change His mind.

Then you don't believe your bible.

By what the Bible tells, Gods thought is:
1. Righteous will live
2. Unrighteous will die.

By what the Bible tells, God's order was death by stoning for a man picking up sticks on Saturday.

[historia]

Is the Christian God omniscient? If he is, how can he also have free will?

Elsewhere in this thread, I believe I gave a definition that I feel is more precise which is, "The capacity of a conscious mind to make decisions and choices without any external constraints or coercion."

Since omniscience is an internal attribute of God, it would appear that does not qualify as an external constraint, per your definition.

[historia]

According to many Christian apologists God cannot have free will.

Which Christian apologists make this argument?

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 28 by historia]

Good point.