Atheism as a religion

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amortalman
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Atheism as a religion

Post #1

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The following excerpt is from the National Catholic Register, www.ncregister.com :

But the truth is, atheism is the farthest thing in the world from simple absence of belief. Indeed, atheism is a whole system of beliefs—a system that has its own philosophy (materialism), morality (relativism), politics (social Darwinism), and culture (secularism). It even has its own sacraments (abortion and euthanasia). And this system of beliefs has been responsible for more death, carnage, persecution and misery than any system of beliefs the world has ever known.

Topic of debate: Do you agree or disagree with the statement above and why.

Edit Note: The web address for the National Catholic Register is incomplete. The article I referenced can be read at http://www.ncregister.com/blog/guest-bl ... is-atheism
Last edited by amortalman on Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #71

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2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 66 by rikuoamero]

I see you have avoided my question in post 64. Why is that?

viewtopic.php?p=941779#941779
I answered it. In order to match the descriptive word atheist, one must lack a belief in a god or gods.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Post #72

Post by rikuoamero »

2timothy316 wrote:
rikuoamero wrote:
In short, why call me a person who has a religion, when all throughout this I have carefully explained I do not?
Because if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. Heck, I even found an article where there are some Atheist that do recruitment festivals. https://www.oregonlive.com/faith/2016/0 ... tival.html

All you have explained is that you have your own dictionary and the dictionary the world uses doesn't apply to you. So you do whatever you wish, the rest of us are going to call your belief system what it is, a godless religion. Even in search engine results the number one result for 'godless religion' is atheism. If want to deny that, go ahead.
You must be seeing things that I am not seeing, because I read that article and I did not see anything, any mention whatsoever, where the person(s) doing the recruitment said "This is what we believe, and to join us, you have to subscribe to it" (or words to this effect. To give you an example of what I mean, please examine the Statement of Faith for AnswersInGenesis, where they require that anyone working for them subscribe to their dogmas, even if in just a lay capacity.

"In order to preserve the function and integrity of the ministry in its mission to proclaim the absolute truth and authority of Scripture and to provide a biblical role model to our employees, and to the Church, the community, and society at large, it is imperative that all persons employed by the ministry in any capacity, or who serve as volunteers, should abide by and agree to our Statement of Faith, to include the statement on marriage and sexuality, and conduct themselves accordingly."
https://answersingenesis.org/about/faith/
So if I'm reading that right, if I were to want to volunteer to help out at a soup kitchen run by AiG, I'd have to subscribe to their dogmas, such as that the Bible is the written Word of God.

The person(s) at the atheist festival even said and I quote
"Who do you hope comes to the festival? Are you hoping to attract religious people so they can learn more about atheism or atheists so they can find encouragement?

A little of both. Our goal isn't to have a reverse conversion -- it's just to make the point that there are atheists all around us. Our friends are atheists, and even if they don't say that, they are there."
Did the person(s) running the festival at any point state that what they believe is a dogma, and anyone who disagrees with them is the atheist equivalent of a heretic? Was an orthodoxy being imposed or sought to be imposed?
All you have explained is that you have your own dictionary and the dictionary the world uses doesn't apply to you.
Again, a complete and utter strawman. At what point did I say that? Let me guess...it's when I said that dictionaries aren't everything.
I didn't reject dictionaries. I didn't say one cannot use dictionaries. I said that dictionaries aren't everything. They are not the ultimate arbiter of language. Do you even know what a dictionary is, how one is formed?
Here's a question regarding dictionaries: are they descriptive, or proscriptive? How is a dictionary written and published? Were there languages before the publication of the first dictionary?
So you do whatever you wish, the rest of us are going to call your belief system what it is, a godless religion.
In which case, I have to say to you and to readers of this discussion that you are incorrect. At no point have you been able to link anything I say or do to what it is theists do, to those people who DO have religions, whom both you and I agree have religions.

I am an atheist. I lack a belief in a god or gods. Now please, for the nth time, explain how me being an atheist is in any way similar to a person who is a member of the Christian religion, or the Islamic religion.
Even in search engine results the number one result for 'godless religion' is atheism.
The number one result for "european conqueror" is one of my favourite youtubers. Does this mean he MUST have conquered Europe? (at least it was at one point, I see now that the top results are some Nintendo video game).
This shows to me that you lack an understanding of how Google search results work. Have you heard of SEO? Do you know that the search engine is not a neutral platform, that the results are modified by Google in exchange for money? That, in addition to that, Google monitors what the top links being clicked on are for a given search term, and thus moves those links to the top of the results page for future searches of those terms?
If want to deny that, go ahead.
I have not. I did not deny what Google's search results return. In fact, I don't think I even commented on your mentioning of the Google search before now.

When are you going to start responding to what it is I actually say, instead of what you imagine?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Post #73

Post by 2timothy316 »

rikuoamero wrote:
I am an atheist. I lack a belief in a god or gods. Now please, for the nth time, explain how me being an atheist is in any way similar to a person who is a member of the Christian religion, or the Islamic religion.
The religions you mentioned are god based religions, yours is godless based religion. That is where the differences stop. Everything else is very much like anyone or anything else. Like Jainism. The Jain religion teaches to strive for successive lives and no to hurt anyone or anything. There are no gods in Jainism, but it's still a religion. Jainism is a form of atheism. Of course it's not like your version of atheism.

There are people who are members of American Atheists. They even have a website. https://www.atheists.org/ They ask for funding, very religious of them. List there values they fight for, very religious of them. They even have a section on ethics that should be followed. Sounds like a religion to me.

Like other god-based religions, atheist are not all peaceful. There are violent atheist just like in other religious beliefs. This is yet another way they are similar. Their beliefs sometimes go against another groups beliefs and there is conflict.

The main point is, religion, dogma doesn't need a god to believe in. A religious belief doesn't need more than one person to believe a set of principles, ethics etc. Religion is a belief system and you have a godless belief system, whether it is like someone else's system or completely your own it doesn't matter. You don't even have to be a member of an atheist group. Whatever that belief system is that you think you should live by makes it your personal religious system. Again as the dictionary put it, "a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices". That is the definition of religion and god doesn't have to be part of it so stop saying it does.

You also have a dogma. If you believe there is no God or gods to be incontrovertibly true, that is a dogma. If you thing that is incontrovertibly true then your agnostic. Which is another type of godless religion with it's dogma being, one cannot prove if God does or doesn't exist.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #74

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2timothy316 wrote:
Like other god-based religions, atheist are not all peaceful. There are violent atheist just like in other religious beliefs.

The main point is, religion, dogma doesn't need a god to believe in. A religious belief doesn't need more than one person to believe a set of principles, ethics etc. Religion is a belief system and you have a godless belief system, whether it is like someone else's system or completely your own it doesn't matter. You don't have to be a member of an atheist group. Whatever that belief system is that you think you should live by makes it your religion.

We can of course reduce the definition of a word to cover all possibilities, in which case the word loses all meaning. If religion is simply belief or non belief in anything and everything then all humans are religious; they believe in kindness to rabbits, posting early for Christmas, eating well, seeing a few capital countries, playing chess and so on. They are religiously attending to what they like. Jainists incidentally do worship gods: Jain worship is mainly given to Mah�vīra, Parshvanatha, Neminatha and Rishabhanatha.


I can't see what point there is in regarding atheism as a religion; it is a movement away from superstition, a renunciaation of perhaps the beliefs offered to us as children. If the charge is: you believe in being good to your fellow man, then I accept this charge quite proudly and happily. If religion is being nice to Mrs, Brown or Mr. Smith down the road, okay. I'm deeply religious, without any gods.

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Post #75

Post by 2timothy316 »

marco wrote:

We can of course reduce the definition of a word to cover all possibilities, in which case the word loses all meaning.
Merriam Webster

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

#2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

According to the MW a religion covers all systematic belief systems. No matter if they are personal or institutionalized.

Another dictionary says of the word religion. "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance." Then uses it in a sentence. "consumerism is the new religion"

Is it possible that your idea of the word religion is incorrect or are all of the dictionaries wrong and everyone needs to come to you for word definitions?

I see no loss of meaning, so I don't know what you're talking about.

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Post #76

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2timothy316 wrote:
marco wrote:

We can of course reduce the definition of a word to cover all possibilities, in which case the word loses all meaning.
Merriam Webster

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

#2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

According to the MW a religion covers all systematic belief systems. No matter if they are personal or institutionalized.

Another dictionary says of the word religion. "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance." Then uses it in a sentence. "consumerism is the new religion"

Is it possible that your idea of the word religion is incorrect or are all of the dictionaries wrong and everyone needs to come to you for word definitions?

I see no loss of meaning, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Chambers tells us religion can mean a religious order. Shall we discuss the appropriateness of that particular definition? The point which you failed to grasp is that when we extend a definition so that it univerally applies - as you did - then the definition is meaningless. And apart from this, we know what aspect of the definition set we are dealing with, so to discuss, say, a religious order, would be misleading.


Religion is to do with superstitious worship or belief. Atheism rejects this. So in that usage of religion, atheism is not a religion. Introduce religion to be love of chess, drinking, motor sports or whatever, and you get to include atheism - though you score no points since you include all humanity.

I hope this clears things up for you so that you may now "know what I'm talking about." That is such a help - nay, an essential - in discussions.

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Post #77

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marco wrote: Jainists incidentally do worship gods: Jain worship is mainly given to Mah�vīra, Parshvanatha, Neminatha and Rishabhanatha.
They are called Tirthankaras. Which were just people that they claim figured out the hidden forces of the universe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthankara

However, it begs the question, should we add the term worship to the list of words we need to examine? Should everything worshiped be called a god?

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Post #78

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marco wrote:
Chambers tells us religion can mean a religious order. Shall we discuss the appropriateness of that particular definition? The point which you failed to grasp is that when we extend a definition so that it univerally applies - as you did - then the definition is meaningless.
What's the 'as you did' stuff? I quoted from the dictionary. Those are not my words. I can't take credit for what dictionaries publish.
Religion is to do with superstitious worship or belief.
Is this the only definition you will choose to accept and thus turning a blind eye to the other three definitions that are in the dictionary?


Religion - as defined by

Cambridge: "an activity that someone is extremely enthusiastic about and does regularly"

Oxford: "A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion."

Merriam Webster: "scrupulous conformity"

Please state for the record that you reject the other definitions of the word religion as stated by the dictionaries above. And do you understand that these are not my words.

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Post #79

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2timothy316 wrote:
marco wrote: Jainists incidentally do worship gods: Jain worship is mainly given to Mah�vīra, Parshvanatha, Neminatha and Rishabhanatha.



They are called Tirthankaras. Which were just people that they claim figured out the hidden forces of the universe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthankara

However, it begs the question, should we add the term worship to the list of words we need to examine? Should everything worshiped be called a god?

I think you are misusing or misunderstanding the term "beg the question." I am identifying Jainism as something involving religious superstition about the supernatural, with worship paid to the equivalent of gods. You referred me to this:


In Jainism, a tirthankara (Sanskrit: tīrthaṅkara; English: literally a 'ford-maker') is a saviour and spiritual teacher of the dharma (righteous path).[1] The word tirthankara signifies the founder of a tirtha,[2] which is a fordable passage across the sea of interminable births and deaths, the saṃs�ra. According to Jains, a tirthankara is a rare individual who has conquered the saṃs�ra, the cycle of death and rebirth, on his own and made a path for others to follow.



Atheists would reject such stuff, which is not too removed from Christian belief in the supernatural. Jesus was a ford-builder, and to some he was God.

All this is a side-line to the discussion about atheism being a religion. It renounces superstitions and gods and so is not a religion in the usual meaning of religion.

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Post #80

Post by marco »

2timothy316 wrote:
Please state for the record that you reject the other definitions of the word religion as stated by the dictionaries above. And do you understand that these are not my words.
I am not involving myself in the tennis returns of definitions. I have made my position abundantly clear and if you wish to argue against my viewpoint, do so. I already said that we can open the definition of religion, using dictionaries if you so require, to embrace almost every human activity, as you did in an earlier post.

I conceded that if you wish to say that religion is any activity that might interest humans, then atheism is a religion, but that is the equivalent of saying nothing at all. When atheism is called a religion, it is reasonable to suppose we are in a theological context, or at least a context that admits of some resemblance to theology. If you want furniture removers and butterfly collectors to be admitted, then you have my concession that atheism is something humans get involved with.

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