What Is The Purpose of Human Existence?

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RedEye
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What Is The Purpose of Human Existence?

Post #1

Post by RedEye »

There is sometimes an argument raised by Christians that existence has no meaning to atheists if there is no higher power to bestow meaning to their lives. (This can be countered by pointing out that all life is in this same position. We create our own meaning. Evolution, by its very nature, produces organisms which strive to survive and reproduce. Humans, by being self-aware, create their own meaning to their lives outside of these parameters). I submit that the opposite is true.

If there is a loving God and his only desire is for us to join him in paradise, then this life on Earth is completely pointless. We are in effect briefly in God's anteroom waiting to get inside of his house proper. This Earthly existence of three-score and ten years (if we are lucky) serves no discernible purpose. An atheist on the other hand can say that this is the only life we have, so we should savour every moment and treasure life because it is precious. A Christian devalues life by making it only a transient thing of no real significance compared to the eternity of paradise. It is a mere eye-blink compared to the never-ending glory of heaven.

So my questions to Christians (theists) are these. What possible purpose does our brief Earthly existence have in their view? Why does God not just create us in heaven and be done with it if that is his ultimate desire (to have us join him there)? Why all the pain and suffering for no apparent reason?
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Re: What Is The Purpose of Human Existence?

Post #51

Post by FWI »

[Replying to RedEye]
RedEye wrote:What possible purpose does our brief Earthly existence have in their (my) view?


Humans were created to replace the sinning angels! However, we (humans) are not just given this honor by fiat. We, as well, need to exhibit our "worthiness" to be granted life beyond the first death. God makes the rules and this is just one of them.
RedEye wrote:Why does God not just create us in heaven and be done with it if that is his ultimate desire (to have us join him there)?


When angels were created, God gave them life inherent or no need for substances to exist, He also gave them free-will. However, because of free-will there were about a third of the angels that rebelled and became adversaries to God's ways. The consequences for this rebellion was certain confinement and separation from God for eternity…Hence, they are not able to "fully do" what they want to do or their free-will has been taken away. Their minds are so wrapped that the unhappiness, which they are experiencing, is true torture! Yet, humans were created physical or we need substances to exist. We, also were given free-will and we die, because of sin. Fortunately, because we are physical, we are not trapped in a situation, where those who reject God and His ways will be in a state of torture for eternity…They will just cease to exist, when death comes to them! Unless, they are resurrected. So, it should be obvious that being created physical is the best choice, when free-will is given.
RedEye wrote:Why all the pain and suffering for no apparent reason?


Pain and suffering is the result of human activities! There are very few instances where man's activities are not the results of pain and suffering, in one way or another. So, the reason is human nature…

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Re: What Is The Purpose of Human Existence?

Post #52

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FWI wrote:

Humans were created to replace the sinning angels!

So humans were an afterthought. And what was God's next try after humans sinned? Whales maybe?
FWI wrote:

However, because of free-will there were about a third of the angels that rebelled and became adversaries to God's ways.

Is this intelligence written in cuneiform somewhere? Do we know how many angels were created, so that we can divide the number by three?
FWI wrote:
So, it should be obvious that being created physical is the best choice, when free-will is given.

Well was it a choice? I don't recall being asked. All this amazing theology was denied to my adolescence.
FWI wrote:
Pain and suffering is the result of human activities! There are very few instances where man's activities are not the results of pain and suffering, in one way or another. So, the reason is human nature…

I suppose giving counterexamples is a waste of energy. the Greek writer of tragedies, Aeschylus, is rumoured to have died when an eagle dropped a tortoise on his bald head. Can this have been a punishment for his plays?

Life is funny and tragic enough without inventing tales of naughty angels.

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Re: What Is The Purpose of Human Existence?

Post #53

Post by RedEye »

1213 wrote:
RedEye wrote: Whoa there! Who was talking about abortion? And how exactly does a foetus without a developed brain realize what is happening to it as it is aborted?
Just for your information:
“Babies Learn to Recognize Words in the Womb�
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/08 ... words-womb
Firstly, we were discussing moral lessons. Secondly, the above experiment was on babies (not foetuses) in the womb over the last few months of pregnancy which has nothing to do with your irrelevant tangent on abortions. It's all just another red herring.
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Re: What Is The Purpose of Human Existence?

Post #54

Post by RedEye »

ttruscott wrote:
RedEye wrote:She'ol (/ˈʃi�oʊl/ SHEE-ohl, /-əl/; Hebrew שְ��וֹל‬ ʃeʾôl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from God.[1] The inhabitants of Sheol are the "shades" (rephaim), entities without personality or strength.[2]
This may be true of those in that state but they do come and go...
If you are basing your whole belief system on one verse with a dodgy translation in a few Bible versions then there is not much more to say.

Here's Matthew Henry's Commentary on that verse:
  • 2. In the other world (Ps. 9:17): The wicked shall be turned into hell, as captives into the prison-house, even all the nations that forget God. Note, (1.) Forgetfulness of God is the cause of all the wickedness of the wicked. (2.) There are nations of those that forget God, multitudes that live without God in the world, many great and many mighty nations, that never regard him nor desire the knowledge of his ways. (3.) Hell will, at last, be the portion of such, a state of everlasting misery and torment—Sheol, a pit of destruction, in which they and all their comforts will be for ever lost and buried. Though there be nations of them, yet they shall be turned into hell, like sheep into the slaughter-house (Ps. 49:14), and their being so numerous will not be any security or ease to them, nor any loss to God or the least impeachment of his goodness.
Christian orthodoxy disagrees with you. In fact you are going against the explicit findings of the Second Council of Constantinople:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-exist ... ristianity
  • Those who reject pre-existence, which would be every Christian denomination that accepts the conclusions of the Second Council of Constantinople (i.e., all Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians and many Protestants), simply see Jeremiah 1:5 as another passage about God's foreknowledge. This ecumenical Council explicitly stated "If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema."[6] This would make rejection of Origen's doctrine likely to be the majority Christian opinion to the present day.
You seem to be very much on the outer. Wikipedia has not "got it wrong". All the Sheol article does is summarize Jewish writings on the subject. It is you who is at odds with what the Hebrew concept of Sheol entailed.

Speaking for myself personally, I have no memory of a prior existence and doing good or evil. What possible use is such an assertion (of pre-existence) if no evidence can ever be provided for it?
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Re: What Is The Purpose of Human Existence?

Post #55

Post by RedEye »

FWI wrote: [Replying to RedEye]
RedEye wrote:What possible purpose does our brief Earthly existence have in their (my) view?

Humans were created to replace the sinning angels!
That doesn't really answer my question. Why on Earth and not in Heaven?

And if we started sinning too, why hasn't God replaced us?
RedEye wrote:Why all the pain and suffering for no apparent reason?


Pain and suffering is the result of human activities! There are very few instances where man's activities are not the results of pain and suffering, in one way or another. So, the reason is human nature…
Floods, droughts, famines, earthquakes, landslides, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, tornadoes, heatwaves, diseases (cancer, malaria, cholera), parasites, viruses (eg. cold and flu), wild animal attacks, etc. etc. do not cause pain and suffering? Wow!
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Re: What Is The Purpose of Human Existence?

Post #56

Post by ttruscott »

RedEye wrote: Here's Matthew Henry's Commentary on that verse:
Odd coincidence; M. Henry is the one commentator I refuse to read anymore. A less capable man I do not know.
Christian orthodoxy disagrees with you. In fact you are going against the explicit findings of the Second Council of Constantinople:
I am obviously non-orthodox. I am not a Catholic that you might scare me with Constantinople. I adhere to neither the Romish nor Eastern rite...in fact, having them against me gives me greater hope in the ONE I do follow.

Speaking for myself personally, I have no memory of a prior existence and doing good or evil. What possible use is such an assertion (of pre-existence) if no evidence can ever be provided for it?
Neither do you have any memory of the clear proof of YHWH's divinity and power yet apparently you got it with everyone else, Rom 1:20. Why do you not remember? Apparently because all sinners hold sin dearer to their heart than the truth and repress this memory as per the rest of Romans 1.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: What Is The Purpose of Human Existence?

Post #57

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 56 by ttruscott]
Neither do you have any memory of the clear proof of YHWH's divinity and power yet apparently you got it with everyone else, Rom 1:20.
Someone please correct me but hasn't ted's position over the years been that we weren't given the "clear proof of YHWH's divinity", so as to ensure we made a true free will decision to join him?
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Re: What Is The Purpose of Human Existence?

Post #58

Post by RedEye »

ttruscott wrote:
RedEye wrote: Here's Matthew Henry's Commentary on that verse:
Odd coincidence; M. Henry is the one commentator I refuse to read anymore. A less capable man I do not know.
I would normally agree with you. However, when two people disagree on the translation and meaning of a biblical verse it becomes necessary to cite some kind of authority.
Christian orthodoxy disagrees with you. In fact you are going against the explicit findings of the Second Council of Constantinople.
I am obviously non-orthodox. I am not a Catholic that you might scare me with Constantinople. I adhere to neither the Romish nor Eastern rite...in fact, having them against me gives me greater hope in the ONE I do follow.
So do I take it that you recognize no authority but your own and reject the roots of your own religion? (All Christian denominations began with the Catholic Church).
Speaking for myself personally, I have no memory of a prior existence and doing good or evil. What possible use is such an assertion (of pre-existence) if no evidence can ever be provided for it?
Neither do you have any memory of the clear proof of YHWH's divinity and power yet apparently you got it with everyone else, Rom 1:20. Why do you not remember? Apparently because all sinners hold sin dearer to their heart than the truth and repress this memory as per the rest of Romans 1.
How convenient. Everyone who doesn't remember (which is everyone) is branded a sinner. Problem solved. It must be great to live in a world where every problem can be swept away with an imperious wave of the hand and a casual slur of our fellow human beings.

I take offense that you label me a sinner without knowing anything about me. Some Christians have a bad habit of trying to demonize their opponents in order to make an argument.
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Post #59

Post by FWI »

RedEye wrote:That doesn't really answer my question. Why on Earth and not in Heaven?


Yes, it does…It just seems that you can't or don't want to understand the answer. However, I didn't expect most (who would read the post) to be able to. Yet, this isn't my fault.

Anyways, it seems that you are unaware of the fact that the book of Revelation tells us that God will dwell on this earth (spiritually), when His plan is complete. Thus, "where else" would those who desire to be in the presence of God want their homes to be?
RedEye wrote:And if we started sinning too, why hasn't God replaced us?


The process is working itself out…When, God's plan is complete; the sinning angels will have been replaced by glorified humans, which are changed into new (non-physical) beings. All other humans (not in this group) will cease to exist…Thus, the only type of "advanced" intelligent life that will exist is non-physical. Hence, there will be no need for any further replacements, because there will be no more sin.
RedEye wrote:Floods, droughts, famines, earthquakes, landslides, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, tornadoes, heatwaves, diseases (cancer, malaria, cholera), parasites, viruses (eg. cold and flu), wild animal attacks, etc. etc. do not cause pain and suffering? Wow!


Well, if we are to believe the scientific community, several of the listed examples are caused by man-made global warming. Famines are also caused by man! There has always been enough food on this planet for everyone, it's just that most don't want to share it. Diseases are caused by the environment humans create for themselves, which can be transferred from one place to another. This is supported by the fact that modern humans can treat, cure and improve their environments to stop the spread of many of the problems you listed. What humans eat, drink and the air we breathe is also a major problem, related to diseases, parasites and viruses. All are a part of man induced problems, where humans want to decide for themselves: what is right and what is wrong…Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions are a result of a living planet (per the scientific community), so these would fall into the category of "very few" that I included in my comment. Yet, this also can be prevented or minimize by man: just don't live in these areas! As far as, wild animals are concerned: Don't encroach on where they live or at the least, keep your distance from them. Don't destroy their habitat and leave their food sources alone. Thus, wild life attacks are also preventable…Wow

(Post references: 51 and 55)

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Re: What Is The Purpose of Human Existence?

Post #60

Post by 1213 »

marco wrote: Not quite. There was a serpent slithering around uncontrolled. There was a poisonous tree placed stupidly within reach of the Neanderthals. The persuasive serpent was wiser than the humans, since God didn't make Aristotle or Einstein, but Adam.
I think it had nothing to do with wisdom. Wisdom is not useful, if one doesn’t want to hear truth. Serpent also was not really the problem, because people were free.
marco wrote:
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.
To whom did God say this? And how do we know his exact words to the clouds? The story is an embarrassment, given we have antibiotics and aeroplanes, yet we still talk of a tree of knowledge in a garden, guarded by cherubs. Are they still on duty?
Actually, I have wondered some time, if I would know where the Garden is, should I tell it? What would happen, if people would really know where the place is?

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