Pious people tell us that God is merciful and kind; he has provided us with food and clothing and tools, as well as love and beauty and joy sprinkled with the salt of sadness to give it more taste.
Jesus seemed to have special knowledge of God. What extra details has he given that pious folk don't already gather? What peculiar insight has he provided?
Or is Christ's guesswork no better than that of pious individuals? What evidence do we have that Christ knew more than other preachers?
Did Jesus know God?
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Re: Did Jesus know God?
Post #2Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Re: Did Jesus know God?
Post #3Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 1 by marco]
What do you mean by evidence? Is the Bible in play here?
Yes, I am talking about Jesus and we have information about him from the NT. His reported words might tell us he knew things others did not. I am not, here, suggesting that these reports are in themselves incontrovertible. I am simply examining statements made about him for evidence he knew more than most.
Elsewhere we might simply say: The Bible tells us, and add a full stop.
As an example, "My Father's house has many mansions" might be taken as a piece of knowledge others may not have had.
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Re: Did Jesus know God?
Post #4This looks like a very standard, classic Christian dodge right here.Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 1 by marco]
What do you mean by evidence? Is the Bible in play here?
The question is clear, simple and straightforward.
Put forward WHATEVER you happen to have.
If you have nothing ...
Admit it.
No one EVER demonstrates that "God" exists outside their parietal cortex.
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Re: Did Jesus know God?
Post #5[Replying to post 1 by marco]
I would argue that Jesus preached an entirely different message from the preachers of the day. If he didn't, they wouldn't have wanted to kill him. So I would definitely say he at least had different knowledge if not greater. If you're wondering what he preached that was different, I happen to have an entire book written on the subject. He warned that a dog returns to its vomit and a pig to the mud, and he warned to beware the leaven of the Pharisees. Jesus' message is now different than modern-day Christianity as well since Christianity turned right back to Pharisaical thinking. His message can be understood from the Bible, but it takes a certain insight and willingness to see it. A different knowledge than modern preachers. Does that mean it came from God though? Meh. Just cause it's different doesn't mean it's right or there would be a LOT of right people that contradict .
I would argue that Jesus preached an entirely different message from the preachers of the day. If he didn't, they wouldn't have wanted to kill him. So I would definitely say he at least had different knowledge if not greater. If you're wondering what he preached that was different, I happen to have an entire book written on the subject. He warned that a dog returns to its vomit and a pig to the mud, and he warned to beware the leaven of the Pharisees. Jesus' message is now different than modern-day Christianity as well since Christianity turned right back to Pharisaical thinking. His message can be understood from the Bible, but it takes a certain insight and willingness to see it. A different knowledge than modern preachers. Does that mean it came from God though? Meh. Just cause it's different doesn't mean it's right or there would be a LOT of right people that contradict .
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Re: Did Jesus know God?
Post #6ElCodeMonkey wrote:
If you're wondering what he preached that was different, I happen to have an entire book written on the subject. He warned that a dog returns to its vomit and a pig to the mud, and he warned to beware the leaven of the Pharisees.
If aphorism is what we want, we can visit the Greek philosophers. I am not decrying Christ's oratory; he could obviously impress a crowd. But so too can semi-literate pop stars.
Poets across the globe and through the centuries have given us the finest distillation of human eloquence. The mouths of fictional characters have been filled with the burning coal of best oratory. Old Polonius was as wise as Christ in his advice. I learn more from Pushkin or Horace than I do from Jesus. I am imperfect so being told to be as perfect as God is poor advice whereas being informed that writing can be more lasting than bronze is wisdom. And funnily enough, Jesus wrote nothing at all.ElCodeMonkey wrote:
Does that mean it came from God though? Meh. Just cause it's different doesn't mean it's right or there would be a LOT of right people that contradict.
Jesus stands on the shoulders of loud-voiced people who used his name.
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Post #7
It seems to me that Jesus knowledge of Yahweh was distinctly Hellenic.
Remember Rome had a history of unrest in the Judea, with immigrant Greeks, Romans and other cultures causing unrest with the locals.
If we examine Jesus best hits:
Render to (the god) Caesar the things that are Caesars, and the things that are (the god) Yahweh's those things that are his...
Clearly has two meanings - one to gentiles (like everyone on this forum): That it is clever to pay the tax, because you should respect everyone's gods, and this god supplies the money.
and the Judaic: That it is blasphemy to pay a tax to a foreign god with coins that proclaim the divinity of other gods.
Then there is the abrogating the punishment for adultery, something Hellenic culture is very permissive with, whereas Judaic culture insists is a sin worthy of dead. I imagine this was causing a great deal of problems with promiscuous Hellenes seducing the daughters of Jerusalem. Ruining virgins and such, making them claim their babies were from God, you know.
The Bible also proclaims that all governments are god permitted and should be followed, something the invading Hellenist would surely approve of.
Then there are Jesus humanist philosophies - the Golden Rule being the most famous, (re)discovered by Greek Philosophers, and fresh for insertion into Judea.
So Jesus seemed to have very unique insight into God, one that is worthy of a Hellenic Doctor of Philosophy. Or several.
Remember Rome had a history of unrest in the Judea, with immigrant Greeks, Romans and other cultures causing unrest with the locals.
If we examine Jesus best hits:
Render to (the god) Caesar the things that are Caesars, and the things that are (the god) Yahweh's those things that are his...
Clearly has two meanings - one to gentiles (like everyone on this forum): That it is clever to pay the tax, because you should respect everyone's gods, and this god supplies the money.
and the Judaic: That it is blasphemy to pay a tax to a foreign god with coins that proclaim the divinity of other gods.
Then there is the abrogating the punishment for adultery, something Hellenic culture is very permissive with, whereas Judaic culture insists is a sin worthy of dead. I imagine this was causing a great deal of problems with promiscuous Hellenes seducing the daughters of Jerusalem. Ruining virgins and such, making them claim their babies were from God, you know.
The Bible also proclaims that all governments are god permitted and should be followed, something the invading Hellenist would surely approve of.
Then there are Jesus humanist philosophies - the Golden Rule being the most famous, (re)discovered by Greek Philosophers, and fresh for insertion into Judea.
So Jesus seemed to have very unique insight into God, one that is worthy of a Hellenic Doctor of Philosophy. Or several.
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Post #8
marco wrote:
Given that Jesus is God the Son, the second person of the Triune Godhead, he does indeed have special knowledge of God the Father, having existed with him eternally, sharing his essence. The same goes for the Holy Spirit who is the third person of the Trinity. When Jesus came to earth as God Incarnate, he set aside his divine attributes to live as a man. But he has them once again as he sits at the right hand of God.Jesus seemed to have special knowledge of God.
Re: Did Jesus know God?
Post #9Do you mean things like:marco wrote: Jesus seemed to have special knowledge of God. What extra details has he given that pious folk don't already gather? What peculiar insight has he provided?
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.�
And:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.�
And:
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all�
And:
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.�
These were all things that pious people had not figured out, and many of those thought to be pious would have declared the opposite to be true.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
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Re: Did Jesus know God?
Post #10bjs wrote:
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.�
These were all things that pious people had not figured out, and many of those thought to be pious would have declared the opposite to be true.
This is not true of your last quote:
“Do not return evil to your adversary; Requite with kindness the one who does evil to you, Maintain justice for your enemy, Be friendly to your enemy.�
- Akkadian Councils of Wisdom (from the ancient Babylonian civilization that existed two millennia before Jesus was born)
"Let us live happily, not hating those who hate us. Let us therefore overcome anger by kindness, evil by good, falsehood by truth. Do not hurt others in ways that would be hurtful to yourself.�
- Buddhist wisdom (written centuries before Jesus was born)
https://etb-biblical-errancy.blogspot.c ... -your.html
Whoever put the words you quoted into Jesus' mouth was obviously very well read. Who knows, it may have even been Jesus himself.