Another Proof That God Does Not Exist

[RedEye]

Definitions:
God - the creator of the universe.

Syllogisms:
P1: Something can only be created if time exists.
P2: Time is a fundamental part of the universe.
C1: The universe cannot have been created.

P3: It is not possible for the universe to have a creator (from C1).
P4: God is only necessary as an explanation for the origin of the universe.
C2: God, as defined, does not exist.

Support for Premises:
P1 - For something to have been created there must be a moment in time where it did not exist and then a moment in time in which it did. Creation is a temporal (time-related) concept. The word "created" is incoherent without time.
P2 - We know from the work of Albert Einstein and the physics of the 20th and 21st centuries that we live in a universe whose fabric consists of space-time. The only time we know is part of our universe and again, it is incoherent to talk about the passage of time without the universe already existing.
P3 - Follows from conclusion C1.
P4 - Follows from the definition of God.

Can anyone fault this logical proof? Which premises (if any) are wrong?

Note: To refute this proof you must show that either it is not valid (the conclusions do not follow from the premises) or that it is not sound (there is a problem with one or more premises). For the latter, please nominate a premise and then carefully explain why we cannot accept it. Only by invalidating a premise can you invalidate the argument as a whole. (Unless you can show that one of the syllogisms has a conclusion which does not follow from its premises).

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 258 by 2ndRateMind]

The God I have described is ultimately Good, ultimately Just, ultimately Merciful, and pure, universal, unconditional Love.

And ultimately an ideal fantasy. The love that Christians feel for this being is more of an infatuation. Like the school girl lying on her bed dreaming of the pop idol she feels so much love for and fantasising about the future where he loves her back and they are together in a state of pure bliss. He can do no wrong and is perfection in her eyes. Those looking on can see her folly even if she can not.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 258 by 2ndRateMind]

Reading through your latest responses, I am struck by the fervency of the negativity of your replies. It's not just that you all clearly believe God does not exist, but that you all clearly want to believe that God does not exist. I wonder why that is?

I want the God character of the Bible to not exist, because that character is, shall we say, not nice?
...
I've got an ideal for what I consider "Good". The character from the Bible does not meet that. That character is a vicious, mass murdering beast who is ultimately concerned only with himself.

It has been said that we get the God we deserve. And I share your reservations about the God of the Old Testament. But those were primitive, thuggish times, and it is hardly surprising that a primitive, thuggish tribe thought of God in a primitive, thuggish way. But how could they do other? They had not the language, let alone the philosophical and theological development, to conceive of God as any better (morally) than they were.

So, Jesus.

But I do not entirely reject the whole of the OT, merely those parts of it inconsistent with Jesus' paradigm shift concerning the nature of God. And I see the OT scriptures as mainly useful in that they portray an accurate record of the then pertaining religious status quo, so that we might judge the extent of that paradigm shift for ourselves.

Finally, I would just say it is far better to believe in the God you want to exist, than disbelieve in God altogether, simply because other people's interpretations of the divine fail to meet your proper expectations as to the character of the divine.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[brunumb]

The good thing about non-existent gods is that you can design one to exactly suit your needs. Don't like Yahweh? Too brutal and prone to temper tantrums with genocidal tendencies? No problem, even gods evolve. Let's clone him as his own son and give him a complete makeover. A hippy love guru type should appeal to the masses. Better keep Yahweh in case you lose some of the followers, but preferably just in the background. Actually, the non-speaking one will be handy too for things like messages and over-shadowings. That makes a perfect threesome, just like the Marx brothers. What a team. Now a bit of cherry picking from the OT and retrofitting of a few prophecies and our new God is on his way.

Humans have created thousands of gods. It's very easy really. The important thing is to make sure that each new one is better suited to the times. Evolution is all about possessing characteristics that give you a survival advantage. The gods we have now are clearly better suited to our times than the ones from several millennia ago.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 263 by brunumb]

It's my thinking that our conceptions of God always have evolved, still evolve, and (barring catastrophe) always will evolve, according to human social and ethical progress. Infinite Goodness leaves a lot of room for humanity to develop towards.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 252 by 2ndRateMind]

...You appear to be condemning people for alleged thought crimes...

Well, it would be my contention that the fundamental feature of sins is that they are thought crimes. So, take the opposite of sin; love. I think it was RedEye who said that he thought that love was an emotion. It's true, but I think love is more than that; I think it is a state of mind, a 'way of being'. And if that is true of love, it must also be true of lovelessness. And it is the loveless way of being that condemns us to Hell, in this world and presumably the next, and the rationalisations that we make up to justify our lovelessness (eg., racism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia, antisemitism, islamophobia, and just general misanthropy, etc) that are the sins. But, and this is the crucial point, it is our decision to be loveless in such ways.

Or, if you want to take a different, more traditional tack on this, take the seven deadly sins as listed by the early church fathers. To save you looking them up, they are: gluttony, avarice, envy, sloth, lust, wrath and pride. All 'ways of being', all utterly selfish, and, therefore, loveless. And all, still, entirely our decision.

So it is love that can enable us to escape these sinful ways of being, and the 'thought crime' sins by which we justify ourselves to ourselves.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 252 by 2ndRateMind]
Somehow the penalty for killing 6 million people and stealing or telling lies is the same. Some justice this good God dispenses.

Ummm. Where did I say that? What I actually said was:

My observation being that the worse the sin, the more difficult to repent, and the more painful the atonement.

You are not, it seems, discussing with me, but arguing with some conservatively biased stereotype of a Christian of your own imagination.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 252 by 2ndRateMind]
Somehow the penalty for killing 6 million people and stealing or telling lies is the same. Some justice this good God dispenses.

Ummm. Where did I say that? What I actually said was:

My observation being that the worse the sin, the more difficult to repent, and the more painful the atonement.

You are not, it seems, discussing with me, but arguing with some conservatively biased stereotype of a Christian of your own imagination.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I also said: "There is nothing to observe. It is just wishful thinking, or perhaps cognitive dissonance at work."
There are so many different Christian sects that it is hard to know exactly which one has the so-called truth. I guess I am arguing with one that views the penalty for sin differently from yourself. Either way, there is no way of determining which is correct and no reason to believe in any of them.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 252 by 2ndRateMind]

We cannot expect a free-ride from God,

Does not expecting a free ride include allowing wars, genocides, plagues, disasters?

if we have, say, initiated the execution of 6 million Jews.

...did you partake in that? I did not. I was born almost fifty years after it, you report your own age to be 55, so that particular grisly piece of history would have been about twenty years before your own birth. So why talk about that is if it's a factor in your, or my, or brunumb or anyone else's really getting a free ride from your god?

So, I merely wished to point to an extreme of unethical behaviour, that we all might agree on. Stalin, or Mao, or Pol Pot, would equally well have served. As would Nero, or Vlad the Impaler, for that matter. Whatever, Justice demands the punishment, and Mercy demands the restoration. But that is to look on the black side. There are many individuals, famous and otherwise, who rightly deserve of Justice the vindication of their mortal lives.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

I also said: "There is nothing to observe. It is just wishful thinking, or perhaps cognitive dissonance at work."

Uh huh. I only speak from my own experience, such as it is. But I have had cause to repent, atone, find forgiveness and finally restoration. I assure you the process was not easy, or 'wishful thinking', or just cognitive dissonance, with which I am also familiar.

If you have not yet been there, and got that T shirt, then I guess it is not part of your psyche, in the way it is for many Christians. But you should not dismiss it, just because you have yet to become familiar with the way God deals with us poor sinners.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 235 by brunumb]

Well, God does not force Himself on anyone. He seems to respect, maybe above all else, our freedom to choose Him, or not, as we please. So, if you disbelieve in His existence, and think that even if He did exist, He would be a pretty lousy sort of being, anyway, then you should not be too surprised if He leaves you to your broodings.

But, and this is the seed of doubt I want to plant in the minds of non-believers, you will also find that, should you ever need Him, and cry out to Him for help, He will be there for you.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Your personal level of faith is not in question. We all know you have faith and have placed said faith in some religious concept. Woo hoo for you...

Now that, that is covered, please show that you speak the truth or please do the honorable thing and retract your claim for being unevidenced and empty.