Giving Up Sin to be a Christian

[Jagella]

Many Christian apologists tend to get a bit frustrated with the skeptics. All of the apologists' arguments and evidence often just don't convince many atheists and other unbelievers. How can those arguments and evidences fail to convince? So often the only answer to this question rests on the belief that the skeptics must be unwilling to give up their sin to become Christians. So...

Question for Debate: What sin might any of you unbelievers need to give up to become Christians?

Personally, I suppose I would need to give up swearing, cursing, and looking at porn although I know it's common for Christians to indulge in these sins.

[1213]

...
Question for Debate: What sin might any of you unbelievers need to give up to become Christians?

Personally, I suppose I would need to give up swearing, cursing, and looking at porn although I know it's common for Christians to indulge in these sins.

It is interesting question, what sin really is. I have understood that sin actually is to reject God, or to live apart from God. Therefore, nothing is sin, if you don’t reject God because of it. And anything that makes you reject God, is sin for you. Many things can be wrong, but still not necessary sin.

If person is righteous, which is basically opposite of sinner, he has right understanding, wisdom of the just. Righteous person understands what is good and wants to do good. Righteous person regrets, when he knows he has done badly or wrongly. And righteous person will have that wrong thing forgiven. Unrighteous person doesn’t regret, he doesn’t care if he has done wrongly or badly. That is the difference and that is why eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Righteous person is loyal to God, even if he makes mistakes. And it is like in this example:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Luke 18:10-14

For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises up again; But the wicked are overthrown by calamity.
Pro 24:16

Behold, his soul is puffed up. It is not upright in him, but the righteous will live by his faith.
Habakkuk 2:4

That is why it is said also:

�All things are lawful for me," but not all things are expedient. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be brought under the power of anything.
1 Corinthians 6:12

"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are profitable. "All things are lawful for me," but not all things build up."
1 Corinthians 10:23

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

Do you have good reason to swear, curse, and looking at porn? If yes, then I think they are not a problem, or sin, if you don’t reject God because of them.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

The only sin I'd have to give up is the sin of unbelief.

Once I crossed that hurdle, everything is free game. If I goof up here or there, all I have to do is confess my sins and presto change-o I'm as good as new until my next round of slip ups.

It's the ultimate Get Out of Jail Free card if I can simply believe something that makes no sense to me. Alas, I cannot, so my transgressions remain real and any wrongdoing I've done will remain my responsibility to correct.

I'm not complaining mind you, it seems the adult thing to do and I'm glad to be one.

[Jagella]

Do you have good reason to swear, curse, and looking at porn? If yes, then I think they are not a problem, or sin, if you don’t reject God because of them.

Swearing and cursing I suppose results from my upbringing as a Catholic. My Catholic (and Protestant) friends and enemies used to curse a lot, and I guess I got the habit from them.

My porn habits started in much the same way. Catholic schoolboys tend to be oversexed, and looking at naked women in provocative poses was the in-thing at the time. Nowadays I don't look at porn much. It gets boring after a while--"you've seen one; you've seen them all!" But I'll still occasionally check out some bikini-clad women online.

None of these activities caused me to "reject" any gods. I don't believe in gods anymore because I found I couldn't believe in them anymore. For me believing in gods is like believing in Santa Claus: once the lie is exposed belief is impossible.

Are there any sins you would like to indulge in but don't indulge in them because you believe in the Bible god?

[Jagella]

The only sin I'd have to give up is the sin of unbelief.

In that case you've disproved all those Christian apologists who drag the skeptics through the mud accusing us of dishonestly "rejecting" the god they believe in because we want to be sleaze-bags. It seems very arrogant for apologists to make that assumption while not entertaining the possibility that they aren't convincing people because their arguments are weak.

And I thought that pride is a sin.

So what's the old saying? "What Paul says about Peter tells you more about Paul than Peter." Apologists seem to be saying that sin is so great that people will risk enraging their god to enjoy that sin. Maybe the apologists feel that way and project that feeling onto the skeptics.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

I was taught in church that sin is any transgression of God's law. Since I no longer believe in the god of the Bible nor his law nothing I do is sin by definition. But I do have morals and believe that anything that harms man or other living creatures or takes what is theirs violates my conscience and is therefore wrong.

[rikuoamero]

Many Christian apologists tend to get a bit frustrated with the skeptics. All of the apologists' arguments and evidence often just don't convince many atheists and other unbelievers. How can those arguments and evidences fail to convince? So often the only answer to this question rests on the belief that the skeptics must be unwilling to give up their sin to become Christians. So...

Question for Debate: What sin might any of you unbelievers need to give up to become Christians?

Personally, I suppose I would need to give up swearing, cursing, and looking at porn although I know it's common for Christians to indulge in these sins.

Jagella, who are you asking this question to? I'm reading and re-reading the OP, and I'm not entirely sure. Are you directing the question towards Christians, and asking them what they think which sin unbelievers need to give up to become Christians, or are you asking unbelievers directly?
If the latter, the question doesn't make sense, since as you yourself would very well know, us unbelievers tend not to believe in sin.

[Jagella]

Jagella, who are you asking this question to? I'm reading and re-reading the OP, and I'm not entirely sure. Are you directing the question towards Christians, and asking them what they think which sin unbelievers need to give up to become Christians, or are you asking unbelievers directly?
If the latter, the question doesn't make sense, since as you yourself would very well know, us unbelievers tend not to believe in sin.

I'm sorry about the confusion, but I have always understood "sin" to be either doing something that the Bible or Christianity tell you not to do or not doing something it tells you to do. Examples of sin might then include fornication and not worshiping the Bible god.

I think that this idea of sin is something anybody might accept as real. The Bible's rules, even if they were made up by people, are a part of reality.

So when I ask unbelievers what sin they might need to give up to be Christians, then unbelievers might answer something like having sex with a girlfriend or staying home from church.

The question for debate, then, is asking unbelievers what they might need to give up to be Christians. If you find the concept of sin to be confusing, then just answer with anything at all (sin or not) that you would give up to be a Christian.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 8 by Jagella]

but I have always understood "sin" to be either doing something that the Bible or Christianity tell you not to do or not doing something it tells you to do.

Or it can be something else. It can be something one inherits from a couple proto-ancestors who ate a magic apple, for example.
Or it can be you simply looking at a pretty woman and acknowledging her to be pretty.

I think that this idea of sin is something anybody might accept as real. The Bible's rules, even if they were made up by people, are a part of reality.

The rules exist, sure. Just like the rules, laws, of the United States exist, and yet I have to ask - if the United States ceased to exist as a nation tomorrow, doesn't this then mean that US laws also cease to exist? The First Amendment of the US Constitution has a clause about seperation between church and state, but if a new entity comes into power, say a Christian or Muslim theocracy, that can and most likely would be removed

So when I ask unbelievers what sin they might need to give up to be Christians, then unbelievers might answer something like having sex with a girlfriend or staying home from church.

This is where you and I differ. I don't think of sin as purely being the rules such as no sex before marriage. It's also apparently some ephemeral extant...thing, that is apparently able to alter reality (or at least, this is what I hear from the theists, I'm not saying I believe this thing myself). I've been told by some Christians that Adam and Eve were two perfect human beings, but that sin altered their genome and as such, we have today's 'lesser' human beings, that this is why we have disease and aging. I've been told that God cannot abide sin, cannot be in contact with it, that heaven cannot have sin with it.

In summary - the question, at least if directed at me, is malformed. It's not just a set of actions that I can do or stop doing. If not believing Jesus is the resurrected Son of God is itself a sin, for example, I can't stop not believing the claim (a lot of negatives there I know! Hopefully you understand what I mean )

[1213]

... once the lie is exposed belief is impossible....

How can you claim God is lie?

....Are there any sins you would like to indulge in but don't indulge in them because you believe in the Bible god?

I don’t want to reject God and indulge in any sin, because I think it would not be good and wise.