Giving Up Sin to be a Christian

[Jagella]

Many Christian apologists tend to get a bit frustrated with the skeptics. All of the apologists' arguments and evidence often just don't convince many atheists and other unbelievers. How can those arguments and evidences fail to convince? So often the only answer to this question rests on the belief that the skeptics must be unwilling to give up their sin to become Christians. So...

Question for Debate: What sin might any of you unbelievers need to give up to become Christians?

Personally, I suppose I would need to give up swearing, cursing, and looking at porn although I know it's common for Christians to indulge in these sins.

[Jagella]

How can you claim God is lie?

Well, it's more accurate to say that those who claim that gods are real are either mistaken or lying. You know that people are either mistaken or lying about the reality of gods because you don't believe in any god except your own. I'm just being logical and make no exceptions for any god being real.

I don’t want to reject God and indulge in any sin, because I think it would not be good and wise.

Do you abstain from sin only because you fear punishment? Personally I can figure out what's good and wise without any gods to tell me. I don't do evil because I don't wish to do harm.

[1213]

You know that people are either mistaken or lying about the reality of gods because you don't believe in any god except your own.

Please don’t make claims of things that you know nothing about. I believe that many gods exist, or have existed. For example, some people kept golden calf as their god. You could find one on wall street. So, I have no reason to deny the existence of other gods, they may exist, I just wouldn’t keep them as my God.

https://www.google.fi/search?q=golden+c ... 19&bih=877

Do you abstain from sin only because you fear punishment? Personally I can figure out what's good and wise without any gods to tell me. I don't do evil because I don't wish to do harm.

In previous post I said “because I think it would not be good and wise�. That means, I abstain not because of fear, but because I understand wrong actions are not good.

But, I hope you really don’t do anything evil, like lie to yourself.

[Jagella]

Please don’t make claims of things that you know nothing about.

In this forum we are "debating Christianity." The large majority of Christians only believe in their own god(s). So my assuming that you are a monotheist is justified. If I am wrong, then a polite correction is all that is needed.

I believe that many gods exist, or have existed. For example, some people kept golden calf as their god. You could find one on wall street. So, I have no reason to deny the existence of other gods, they may exist, I just wouldn’t keep them as my God.

OK, but I'm not clear on what you mean by "gods" (lower-case g). Do you mean that any gods beside your own are mere idols, or do they have conscious powers? If you think those gods are mere idols, then you think they are created by people and can be considered to be "lies." If they are such lies, then I was right to say: "You know that people are either mistaken or lying about the reality of gods because you don't believe in any god except your own."

So my main point here is that you might very well conclude that most gods are lies just like I do. We only differ by one god that you believe in, but I don't believe in.

In previous post I said “because I think it would not be good and wise�. That means, I abstain not because of fear, but because I understand wrong actions are not good.

In that case you have no need for any god to tell you what right and wrong is! You already understand right and wrong. You are much like I am, then: I don't need any gods to let me know the right thing to do.

But, I hope you really don’t do anything evil, like lie to yourself.

As if god-believers don't lie to themselves!

[1213]

OK, but I'm not clear on what you mean by "gods" (lower-case g). Do you mean that any gods beside your own are mere idols, or do they have conscious powers? If you think those gods are mere idols, then you think they are created by people and can be considered to be "lies." If they are such lies, then I was right to say: "You know that people are either mistaken or lying about the reality of gods because you don't believe in any god except your own."

People have also kept other people as their god, they may have existed. If alleged god exists really, I wouldn’t call it a lie. I just wouldn’t keep it as my God. And actually, all people have something as their god, highest authority that rules them. That can be seen from the actions and words of people. What person serves with his actions, is person’s god. For example, those who lie, serve the father of lies. And unfortunately, many are led by fear. Luckily some are led by love.

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8
We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
1 John 4:16

Maybe you should think, what do you serve with your actions.

But maybe I don’t understand what you mean with “…believe in any god…�. I can believe many of them exist, but I wouldn’t follow them. I think it is different matter.

In that case you have no need for any god to tell you what right and wrong is! You already understand right and wrong. You are much like I am, then: I don't need any gods to let me know the right thing to do.

It is because of God that I understand what is wrong and especially why it is wrong.

[Jagella]

People have also kept other people as their god, they may have existed. If alleged god exists really, I wouldn’t call it a lie. I just wouldn’t keep it as my God. And actually, all people have something as their god, highest authority that rules them. That can be seen from the actions and words of people. What person serves with his actions, is person’s god. For example, those who lie, serve the father of lies. And unfortunately, many are led by fear. Luckily some are led by love.

In this case you are speaking of gods as things people create or that they use as metaphors. Those aren't the kinds of gods I'm referring to. I'm referring to actual beings or conscious agents who have supernatural powers. These gods exist independently of the human imagination. If you don't believe in such gods, then they are "lies" in that to say they have objective existence is false.

...I don’t understand what you mean with “…believe in any god…�.

Again, I'm referring to a god as an actual, living agent like Zeus or Thor or some other supernatural being people have believed in. These gods are much like the god you believe in in that they are conscious and interact with people in miraculous ways. If you don't believe that such gods are real, then you dismiss them as lies.

It is because of God that I understand what is wrong and especially why it is wrong.

In that case you obviously need a god to understand right and wrong. I don't need a god to come to moral conclusions and do what I think I ought to do.

[Overcomer]

When it comes to sin, it isn't a matter of giving up this bad habit or that one. We are all born with spirits dead in sin. When we accept Christ, he brings our dead spirits alive in him.

Bottom line: Sin = death.

When someone has been reborn, they start to realize how damaging sin is. It damages the sinner himself as well as the people around him as it affects his relationships with others.

Out of love, a Christians wants to please God just as you might want to please your parent or your spouse or a good friend. Fear isn't involved because there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Rom. 8:1). The process of cleaning up one's act is called sanctification. It is a life-long process in which we work with the Holy Spirit to grow more like Jesus, but it will not be completed this side of heaven.

There are many myths about sin -- that it's fun, that it doesn't hurt anybody, that it's excusable, that nobody should suffer negative consequences because of it -- all lies. Refusal to give up sins is one of the key reasons people don't come to Christ, but I am not suggesting that of anyone here.

[Jagella]

We are all born with spirits dead in sin.

If the Bible god hates sin, then I don't see how he would create us that way. A better explanation is that we are born ignorant of the culture's ideas of right and wrong, and we may "sin" not realizing that we have broken some religious rule and need to be taught not to.

When we accept Christ, he brings our dead spirits alive in him.

Christians don't seem to have spirits any more alive than the spirits of anybody else. Can you explain the difference between the spirits of Christians and unbelievers?

Bottom line: Sin = death.

What is the cause of death here? Does sin cause death, or is the punishment for sin death? I sin all the time, but I'm quite alive.

When someone has been reborn, they start to realize how damaging sin is. It damages the sinner himself as well as the people around him as it affects his relationships with others.

Is this damage noticeable? I see no more damage in unbelievers than in Christians.

Out of love, a Christians wants to please God just as you might want to please your parent or your spouse or a good friend. Fear isn't involved because there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Rom. 8:1).

Romans 8:1 says nothing about the motivation to abstain from sin--only that for some there is no "condemnation." Fear is a motivation to abstain from sin as we read in Matthew 10:28:

Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

So Christ is quoted here as telling us to fear his Father Of The Sky (FOTS) because he may do us violence if we do not obey him. Fear of violence then is a reason we are told not to sin.

There are many myths about sin -- that it's fun, that it doesn't hurt anybody, that it's excusable, that nobody should suffer negative consequences because of it -- all lies.

I agree that some acts the Bible prohibits can be harmful to ourselves or others, but other acts seem to actually be beneficial. Divorce and remarriage, for example, can do a lot of good to free people from bad marriages and enable them to love again.

Refusal to give up sins is one of the key reasons people don't come to Christ, but I am not suggesting that of anyone here.

It's possible that some people won't convert to Christianity because their lifestyles are not consistent with what the New Testament says about sin, but I think such people are rare. Most people who don't convert may see Christian claims as lies that they cannot believe. Besides, many Christians' behavior is much the same as anybody else's if not worse. So giving up sin doesn't seem to be a factor in being a Christian.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 12 by 1213]

So, I have no reason to deny the existence of other gods, they may exist, I just wouldn’t keep them as my God.

I am somewhat confused by what you consider to be God.

Here is the conventional definition:
1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

You seem to be saying that there is possibly more than one god, but only one that you prefer to worship. Is that correct? If so, how did you come to choose the one you refer to as God over all the others?

[1213]

…Again, I'm referring to a god as an actual, living agent like Zeus or Thor or some other supernatural being people have believed in….

For example, Zeus seems to be basically old drunk on a mountain. If someone would keep him as god, he could as well take some other man to be his god. Zeus, Thor… …all other than Bible God have really nothing meaningful to say. I think they could have existed, but I wouldn’t keep them as my God, even if they would exist.

[1213]

1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

And if person is led by fear, isn’t fear the source of moral for that person and the greatest authority for the person?

You seem to be saying that there is possibly more than one god, but only one that you prefer to worship. Is that correct? If so, how did you come to choose the one you refer to as God over all the others?

Yes, I think for example that Zeus could have existed. But I think he is basically like some old guy, not something that I would keep as my God.

I chose Bible God because He is the most wise, good and loving. And main reason why I think so is the Bible. And one reason why I think Bible is special is that atheist don’t understand the Bible, but still go against it.