Would Jesus Support Republican or Democratic Values More?

[ElCodeMonkey]

I would argue that the Democratic policies focus on the well-being of the poor and the oppressed. As such, I believe Jesus would be more in favor of Democratic values than that of the Republicans which focus more on guns and military while being entirely calloused to the plight of the poor and tend toward discrimination of others not like them.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 19 by ElCodeMonkey]

Who is "Cohen"? Yes, those are racist tinged statements if true. But it does not follow of necessity that his Presidential policies are racist, nor are his supporters. I hope you are not saying that as are some on the Left. No "basket full of deplorables" rhetoric here, please.

And I am not comfortable with trading statistics. I am suspicious of counter-intuitive statistics. Shall we move on? To either the supposed current examples of Trump's racism, or Jesus on social matters, such as abortion, homosexuality, gender confusion, etc? Or false witness? (not yours). Harassment of public officials in their private lives?

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 21 by Elijah John]

Cohen was Trumps lawyer for a long time. I wouldn't say they are merely "tinged" with racism. They are flat-out racist. Nobody references race in that way without a racist attitude. As for his policies, we weren't talking about those as of yet. We were simply talking about Trump himself. Would Jesus want a racist as president? Is that an "okay" thing to shrug off for now? That one is pretty bad on the character mark in my opinion. Dealing with anger or patience or something is one thing, but racism?

As for all his followers, no, I do not believe they are all racist. In fact, I wrote a blog post about why people voted for Trump in order to stave off such stupid rhetoric. Of course, he would get the votes of those who are racist though.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with trading statistics and counter-intuitive statistics. I think they are very much on target for the discussion and I would like to have some kind of closure on the topic before moving on. I think it is "highly likely" though not "provable" that Trump is indeed racist to a degree that would effect his policies as we can see with his perception of immigrants and their purported misdeeds. He wants to build a wall when our own people are far more likely to commit the crimes while blaming them instead. On top of that, the wall is absurd since it only stops illegal immigrants who travel on land. Some come by boat, some by air, and many come legally and simply overstay their welcome. It's very short-sighted and seemingly quite racist given his reasons for it.

[ElCodeMonkey]

I think it is also worth noting that straight-up racist white supremecists are finding newfound confidence in being a LOT more vocal and coming out of the woodwork ever since Trump was elected. Coincidence? It's not proof, it may just be correlation and not causation, but I definitely think it's worth a consideration. I think Trump makes white supremicists feel far too comfortable with their hatred.

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[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 22 by ElCodeMonkey]

This is what I mean. For every article graph you find, I could probably find one which states or concluded the opposite. Like this one.

www.justfactsdaily.com/illegal-immigran ... us-public/

Go down about halfway and you will find a graph which seems to contradict your assumptions and conclusions.

That is what I mean by trading statistics. It is tiresome. Do you really want to continue? Are either of us expert in determining the veracity of a given set of statistics? OR interpreting or analysing them?

This seems to be a parameter that we are not in agreement on. Is this what you want the debate to become? Trading statistics? I don't.

Now may we continue? To Jesus position on cultural issues such as morality, sexuality, and the like?

I have already granted that on immigration and economic matters, (helping the poor) Jesus would side with Democrat policies. But that is not enough to conclude that Jesus would side with Democrats on everything. Now may we continue?

And/or current issues that supposely "prove" Trump's racism? LIke Charlottesville? Or Kaepernick?

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 24 by Elijah John]

In friendly jest, that sounds like a very righty thing to say that you want to avoid statistics . Personally, I am very comfortable and fond of statistics. It's the only way we can come to any real conclusions. How can we know if immigration is a problem without statistics on the damage they might be causing? If the data doesn't match between yours and my links then we clearly need to go to the source for legit data if it exists. The data you posted, however is simply another way to look at the data which I will have to look at in more detail tomorrow. What I briefly saw seems to indicate that immigrants are becoming more hostile even if they are still not as hostile as us. Does that mean we should worry though? I need to look at it more when I have time.

You seem uncomfortable, however, and anxious to move on. So feel free to begin a new topic that will grasp your interest and comfort more. We can lay this one down for a nap and potentially come back later if necessary.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 25 by ElCodeMonkey]
The things I've already suggested for debate, Jesus cultural opinions, and Trump's present "racism" do not involve statistics at all. Shall we proceed?

I have no desire to trade statistics and do not wish to return to them. Neither of us are expert in determining their veracity, nor are we experts in their interpretation. Or are you?? If so, you have me at a disadvantage. We should have come to terms with this before we began.

Moving on.

OK, how does "Charlotettesville" prove Trump's "racism"?

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 25 by ElCodeMonkey]
The things I've already suggested for debate, Jesus cultural opinions, and Trump's present "racism" do not involve statistics at all. Shall we proceed?

I have no desire to trade statistics and do not wish to return to them. Neither of us are expert in determining their veracity, nor are we experts in their interpretation. Or are you?? If so, you have me at a disadvantage. We should have come to terms with this before we began.

Moving on.

OK, how does "Charlotettesville" prove Trump's "racism"?

I have taken courses in stats and logic, but moreso I feel comfortable with my simple ability to reason from the data I'm looking at. Lots of practice looking at data and graphs for deriving conclusions. So I feel comfortable with reading and interpreting stats and logically concluding from them and find it to be one of the best ways to come to proper conclusions. So I can't guarantee that it won't pop up again

I was offering for you to pick one of the things you listed and present an argument for it. So we can either go there or, it sounds like you might be interested in discussing Charlottesville. I'm not sure what about it you'd like to discuss though. It sounds like yet another indication that racism is more pronounced and open since Trump was elected.

[Elijah John]

I was offering for you to pick one of the things you listed and present an argument for it. So we can either go there or, it sounds like you might be interested in discussing Charlottesville. I'm not sure what about it you'd like to discuss though. It sounds like yet another indication that racism is more pronounced and open since Trump was elected.

Really? And that's Trump's fault? Skinheads and Nazi's have marched well before Trump ran for office. That is their right under the Constitution, and they've always known that. Trump did not give them that right, the Constitution did. What about Anitfah? Are they Trump's fault too?

So how is Charlottesville evidence of Trump's racism, exactly. The example is frequently used by the Left, but they never really explain how.

Let me put it this way. Is everyone who wants to preserve statues of Robert E Lee, "racist"?

[Elijah John]

I have taken courses in stats and logic, but moreso I feel comfortable with my simple ability to reason from the data I'm looking at. Lots of practice looking at data and graphs for deriving conclusions. So I feel comfortable with reading and interpreting stats and logically concluding from them and find it to be one of the best ways to come to proper conclusions. So I can't guarantee that it won't pop up again

So then, you have me at a disadvantage. In the guidelines for this subforum, here:

viewtopic.php?t=3555

please note the last paragraph.. We should have come to terms with this before we began. And this can be cause to end the debate. Hopefully it won't come to that. I'd like to at least have the chance to demonstrate how Jesus would probably side with the Republicans and conservatives on cultural issues, as I've already conceded he would probably side with the Democrats on economic and immigration issues.

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 28 by Elijah John]

I guess you're simply not drawing the correlation to the same conclusion or perhaps not seeing the correlation. Or perhaps the correlation is not there. I will look at the data and get back with you.

The argument goes like this, however:
Premise 1: Racist people feel more comfortable being openly racist if we elect a clearly racist president.
Premise 2: Racist people are being more openly racist
Conclusion: Therefore the racist people must see Trump as racist.

To support this argument, we can probably assume the first is true although there could be other reasons as well for racist people to become more openly racist. B implies A but not A implies B. To correlate it with the president, we can use the date of his election or even his running in the campaign as a marker in time for their activities to see if a correlation exists. Premise 2 would need to be proven with statistics using that marker from Premise 1 of the presidents election. If P1 and P2 prove true, then the conclusion is that they see Trump as racist themselves which is a good sign that Trump is indeed racist. None of this is perfect proof without flaw, of course, and just because racist people think Trump is racist does not necessitate that he is.

So in conclusion, Charlottesville wouldn't be "Trump's Fault" and I'm not sure if anyone is saying that, but if the racists believe Trump is racist, then their activities should likely become more open and prevalent which Charlottesville could have been a part of. So it's possible that they wouldn't have done that if Trump was not elected. This doesn't mean it's Trump's "fault" of course, it is merely a correlation. I will check the data to see if anything correlates with increased racist activity.

So then, you have me at a disadvantage. In the guidelines for this subforum, here:

viewtopic.php?t=3555

please note the last paragraph.. We should have come to terms with this before we began. And this can be cause to end the debate. Hopefully it won't come to that. I'd like to at least have the chance to demonstrate how Jesus would probably side with the Republicans and conservatives on cultural issues, as I've already conceded he would probably side with the Democrats on economic and immigration issues.

You're saying that we should have had a detail that we can't use statistics? I'm confused. I'm pretty flexible though if you want to nix actual data in the debate. I'm a bit confused by that though since we can't come to legitimate conclusions with mere anecdotes. I've offered that we can move on though if you so desire. Do you want to discuss one of the other topics instead now?

As for Robert E Lee, it's hard to consider that someone seeing him as a hero worthy of a statue would not be racist since he stood for the side that wanted slavery. It's like asking if all people who want to keep a statue of Hitler is a Nazi. A bit more dramatic, but same concept.