Christians are Revolting - Sean Lauren

[otseng]

This thread will debate the book Christians are Revolting: An Infidel's Progress, by Sean Lauren.

We will go through the book one chapter at a time and discuss the contents of each chapter. I anticipate we'll spend several days on each chapter and then move on to the next one. Please avoid jumping ahead, but you're free to discuss previous chapters (for those that join late). We'll end the debate with each person giving a general overview of the book. The thread will then be closed.

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[Elijah John]

Should we not be fanatical in all elements of Jesus' teachings?

Do you think it possible, or likely that Jesus used poetic language? And that he did not intend those imperatives literally, but rather was using hyperbole?

Another possiblity, (probability?) is that Jesus expected the Apolcalypse in the lifetime of his apostles. (Matthew 16.28, etc.) In that case, his radical teachings were suitable to the conditions of the time. What need of property, for example, if the Kingdom of God was impending?

[otseng]

What is the utility in judging others in such a way?

I don't make make judgments of who really is a Christian, but I do judge based on who I'd prefer to fellowship with.

Would everyone claiming faith have to produce those things at least better than me?

I don't know about better than you, but if a person claims to be a Christian and does not produce those things, it's questionable if their faith is sincere.

I would argue I do quite a bit of each of those measures even as an atheist. Even loving God if indeed God is love. I just don't call it "God" except maybe as my lower-case "god."

Sure, even non-Christians can be good people.

Balance would be as opposite fanaticism as possible. Yet Jesus not only said to give up our lives, but he said to one man it wasn't even worth burying his dead father. He said we're not worthy of following him if we even dare look back.

I would disagree. If one takes verses in isolation, it leads to extreme fanaticism, heresy, and cultish practices. Using your example, Jesus said:

Luk 14:26
If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Taking this verse in isolation, one can justify hating their own family members.

But, the Bible also says:

Eph 6:2-3
"Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise: 3 "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

So, there needs to be a balance of both of honoring our parents and forsaking our parents.

You also mention Mark 10 and selling everything.

Mar 10:21
Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Looking at this verse by itself, it would suggest we need to sell everything we have and give it to the poor. But, Jesus did not give this command to everyone he met. He only specifically said this to one very rich young man. So, this verse needs to be balanced with other verses in the Bible.

Should we not be fanatical in all elements of Jesus' teachings?

If it's balanced, I don't think it's wrong to be fanatical.

[otseng]

To keep the debate going forward, I'll go on to chapter 4. However, others may wish to bring up points in previous chapters.

"I found myself calloused and even slightly bubbly at the inevitable return of Christ as surely as many other Christians in the country felt as well. Today, I am sickened by this fact. I now care for all life and not only the life of God’s supposed chosen."

I agree that the end times mentality can produce an escapist and fatalistic attitude that is not productive. There should be a balance between expecting Jesus to come tomorrow, but also the world will last for a thousand years. We should still take care of the earth, plan for our children's future, invest in the future, etc. But, we should also live like our days will end soon. We should not procrastinate things that needs to be done. We should not have unconfessed sins. We should spend time with loved ones.

[ElCodeMonkey]

Sure, even non-Christians can be good people.

I'm confused, then. If you know a person by their fruit, what is it you truly know and to what end? Do we judge simply for the sake of who we hang out with and nothing more? The context of the verse was in relation to false prophets and wolves in sheep clothing. If fruits are good (and how good?) then you can know a prophet is indeed a prophet? And then what? What do you do with a prophet once identified? And if indeed my fruits are better than most Christians, as an atheist, what does this mean? If you know people by fruits and yet you absolutely know by my own admission that I'm not a Christian, then what do we conclude about fruits or how good one must be? Clearly true Christians (or true prophets only?) must be better than the best atheist, no?

If it's balanced, I don't think it's wrong to be fanatical.

I think there is great use in understanding context around something spoken, but taking one verse that says "do X" and another that says "do not X" and then balancing them out to be "do a bit of X but not too much" seems a bit improper. I don't think Jesus taught that to everyone expecting someone 5 years later to clarify by saying to love your parents and that we then balance it all out. Jesus may not have been explicitly saying to hate parents, but the context and hyperbolic intent seems clear to me: "Give me everything, forego yourself and family preferring me, and be radical."

[ElCodeMonkey]

I agree that the end times mentality can produce an escapist and fatalistic attitude that is not productive.

More than simply escapist, however, is the "just desserts" feeling of people dying. Believing that God is going to come back and the rivers will run red with the blood of the non-Christians and taking glory in this makes it awfully hard to have compassion on those suffering from disaster. Christians often say "praise God for sparing me" (the ones who live) but then by extension indicate that God had no desire to save everyone else. A tornado blows through and kills children ripping them right out of a car and that same tornado lands a few pages of a Bible on someone's truck whose owner then gleefully explains how his God still delivers. He cannot see the pain and suffering and yet he's happy about some pages of a Bible on his truck. God did that, but he didn't save the children. It's all part of a bigger plan? Who knows how monsterous those children would have been, right? It's an extreme callous when we think God is in control because clearly it was within God's interests. They deserved it or something.

[Elijah John]

I would argue I do quite a bit of each of those measures even as an atheist. Even loving God if indeed God is love. I just don't call it "God" except maybe as my lower-case "god."

Sure, even non-Christians can be good people.

And isn't such fruit and working of the Spirit in the lives of non Christians, Jews, Taoists, Muslims, etc and yes even atheists, evidence that God and salvation is not the sole property of Born-again Christians? That, in spite of John 14.6 dogma and supposed end-times retribution, book-of-Revelation style. The Spirit, (like the wind), really "blows where it will" and is not confined by orthodoxy.

That would certainly account for good people in other religions, and good people with no religion.

[otseng]

Sure, even non-Christians can be good people.

I'm confused, then. If you know a person by their fruit, what is it you truly know and to what end? Do we judge simply for the sake of who we hang out with and nothing more?

I'm only giving one example of the "utility" of judging fruits that applies to myself. I'm not saying it's the only purpose.

The context of the verse was in relation to false prophets and wolves in sheep clothing. If fruits are good (and how good?) then you can know a prophet is indeed a prophet? And then what? What do you do with a prophet once identified?

Somehow, we need some way to determine if someone is an imposter. How else can it be done besides judging them by their fruits?

And if indeed my fruits are better than most Christians, as an atheist, what does this mean? If you know people by fruits and yet you absolutely know by my own admission that I'm not a Christian, then what do we conclude about fruits or how good one must be? Clearly true Christians (or true prophets only?) must be better than the best atheist, no?

Fruits do not make someone a Christian. Fruits are an indication if someone is a real Christian who claims to be a Christian.

An atheist can have good fruits, perhaps even better than Christians, but that doesn't mean he'll enter heaven. All the good works and good deeds will not determine if someone can get into heaven.

but the context and hyperbolic intent seems clear to me: "Give me everything, forego yourself and family preferring me, and be radical."

Yes, I agree with that.

More than simply escapist, however, is the "just desserts" feeling of people dying.

I think this would only apply to certain eschatologies.

Christians often say "praise God for sparing me" (the ones who live) but then by extension indicate that God had no desire to save everyone else. A tornado blows through and kills children ripping them right out of a car and that same tornado lands a few pages of a Bible on someone's truck whose owner then gleefully explains how his God still delivers. He cannot see the pain and suffering and yet he's happy about some pages of a Bible on his truck. God did that, but he didn't save the children. It's all part of a bigger plan?

I don't believe that God directly causes everything. If that were the case, there would be no free will. I also do not believe that when someone says "praise God for sparing me" that it means God supernaturally spared that person. It's more of an expression of gratitude that something bad did not happen to them.

And isn't such fruit and working of the Spirit in the lives of non Christians, Jews, Taoists, Muslims, etc and yes even atheists, evidence that God and salvation is not the sole property of Born-again Christians?

I do not link works with salvation. Nobody, including Christians, can do enough good works to justify salvation.

[Elijah John]

And isn't such fruit and working of the Spirit in the lives of non Christians, Jews, Taoists, Muslims, etc and yes even atheists, evidence that God and salvation is not the sole property of Born-again Christians?

I do not link works with salvation. Nobody, including Christians, can do enough good works to justify salvation.

Yes, even the working of the Spirit in the lives of all of those people is un-merited Grace. But is Grace and mercy depenedent on believing the "right things" (orthodoxy) or is it imputed based on the receptivity and humility of a person's heart. (Micah 6.8) Jesus seems to be focused mostly on the latter. How receptive a person is to the love of God and neighbor. And that love is manifest in non-Christians too, is it not?

"Blessed are the merciful, for they will recieve mercy". "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God".

A Jew, Muslim, Taoist or even an atheist can be merciful, and pure of heart as well as any Christian.

Seems Jesus preached a "different Gospel" here than what Paul and his Spiritual progeny preach.

No mention of "the blood" in the promises of the Beattitudes.

[otseng]

Yes, even the working of the Spirit in the lives of all of those people is un-merited Grace. But is Grace and mercy depenedent on believing the "right things" (orthodoxy) or is it imputed based on the receptivity and humility of a person's heart. (Micah 6.8) Jesus seems to be focused mostly on the latter. How receptive a person is to the love of God and neighbor. And that love is manifest in non-Christians too, is it not?

These are interesting to discuss, but perhaps in another thread.

Let's move on to chapter 5.

As I've mentioned before, I am familiar with the prosperity doctrine. I was saved during college in a ministry that believed in it. Faith was preached all the time and emphasis was placed on healings, blessings, prosperity, etc. Since I was a new Christian, I didn't really know anything else. It all sounded reasonable since they based their beliefs on the Bible. If people saw miracles in the Bible, shouldn't we expect to see them now? Other Christians that didn't believe as we did just seemed to be lukewarm Christians.

It was never explicitly taught that if people remain sick, there must be something wrong with them - lack of faith, not praying enough, etc. But, of course, the implication was there.

Over time, the ministry collapsed and dissolved. I went on to a Presbyterian church to serve as a youth ministry director. I did not pass on the teachings of baptism of the Holy Spirit, or speaking in tongues, or healings, or faith messages. My main interest was actually apologetics, so that was what I primarily focused on. Other friends of mine continued in the fringes of the prosperity doctrine and attended similar churches and ministries.

[ElCodeMonkey]

Nobody, including Christians, can do enough good works to justify salvation.

Why not? How many good works would someone have to do for you to save them from catastrophe? Do you require perfection before you're willing to save someone? Would it be loving to say that someone is not "worth" saving because they're just a little below perfection? I mean, I can understand not saving Hitler, but we should just watch as you suffer because you're not worth it? I'm not worth it? Elijah John's not worth it? Not reaching perfection means we'll stand aside and watch people burn in a house? Forever? Indefinitely? While they scream in torment? Sorry little girl, didn't quite meet perfection, this is your just desserts. Why must Christianity constantly conclude that we must be perfect to justify not being eternally tormented? Why does that need any justification? I wouldn't even wish that upon Hitler. Nobody deserves it no matter how evil they are. Even a spider doesn't deserve it. No sensing creature deserves torment due to any lack of perfection. Torment is evil, not a way to punish evil.