Are there no good people?

[marco]

Why do we concentrate on man's badness and forget his goodness, his clever efforts to make life better? I watched a TV documentary about a lady who rescued hundreds of injured wild animals and birds. She feeds them like a mother and restores them to health and puts them back into their own environment. I immediately thought: "What a kind soul" but one would be hard pressed to find praise for such actions in the Bible.


Much of what Christ says is condemnation. There are no good people. (Mark 10: 18) I disagree; the world is full of good people.


So was Christ wrong? Are there no good people? Should the lady in the story be called "good"?

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

The documentary you detailed reminds me of a woman I know. She is a member of a local Quaker Meeting I attended for a number of years.

She is a magician with food coupons. She studies all the offerings from local grocers and national producers. It isn't uncommon for her to turn a ten dollar donation into a hundred dollars worth of food.

I remember one time when she combined manufacturers coupons with local store coupons and a double coupon day to actually get paid nine cents for each breakfast cereal she "purchased".

As if this weren't enough, she actively seeks out families who are struggling financially to gift with the abundance she produces from somewhat modest donations.

Is she a good person? Without a doubt.

[Goose]

Why do we concentrate on man's badness and forget his goodness, his clever efforts to make life better?

But why is it good to make life better? Especially human life? We are a species which has proven destructive. Humans elimate other species for pleasure and to make soup. Much of that clever effort to make life better has resulted in the decay of our planet’s environment.

Much of what Christ says is condemnation. There are no good people. (Mark 10: 18) I disagree; the world is full of good people.

Well, sure, if our standard of good is whether or not one has helped an animal then by that standard there are many good people. I’ll bet even Hitler fed his goldfish.

So was Christ wrong? Are there no good people?

Well that depends upon what our standard of good is. In the Christian world view God is the standard of good; God is the paradigm by which we measure what is good; God is the Good. God is perfectly holy and righteous. All have fallen short of God’s standard (Romans 3:23). So no one is good but God. That's the Christian world view in a nut shell.

Should the lady in the story be called "good"?

Assuming an atheistic world view, why is it good to help an animal(s)? They represent competition for resources.

[marco]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic


But why is it good to make life better?

If we need to ask this question we may as well not distinguish between good and evil.

I’ll bet even Hitler fed his goldfish.

This illustrates the point that Christianity is about crushing man's goodness and emphasising his failings. The lady in the story devoted her life to helping injured creatures; Hitler devoted his life to injuring others. There's a small difference.

In the Christian world view God is the standard of good; God is the paradigm by which we measure what is good;

If he is, he shouldn't be. Even Christians (erroneously) label people good. Father Kolbe who gave his life in a concentration camp to save a stranger might not be as good as God, but were God handicapped with human failings I wonder how well he would cope. And if we judge God by human standards we must condemn some of his reported acts: killing schoolboys for calling a man baldy; killing Lot's wife because she was astonished at his destruction - and doing the destruction in the first place. In many ways man does a lot better in the goodness stakes than does Yahweh.

Assuming an atheistic world view, why is it good to help an animal(s)? They represent competition for resources.

It's not too clear what this means. An atheist dismisses Yahweh, not his own dog which he places at a much higher level.

[marco]

Is she a good person? Without a doubt.

Of course she is. Christ comes across as a vinegar-drinker, a man too blinded by his own supposed divine favour to see niceness all around him. His greatest praise was uttered in selfishness: give me more expensive oil - I deserve it! OR you believed by seeing, but those who take my word for it without proof are not imbeciles - they are blessed. And then we have his infamous boast: I'm bigger than Abraham. John Lennon remarked with the same hubris, "We're more popular than Jesus." They probably were.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 3 by Goose]

Goose wrote:

"Assuming an atheistic world view, why is it good to help an animal(s)? They represent competition for resources."

If a man is dying from hunger in the wilderness and a wolf threatens to steal the rabbit he just killed for survival the wolf becomes competition for resources. I think this is true whether the man has an atheistic worldview or a Christian worldview.

My wife and I volunteer at our local Animal Shelter helping find homes for homeless dogs and cats. I hardly see these pets as competition for resources.

[Bust Nak]

Assuming an atheistic world view, why is it good to help an animal(s)?

You ask this but you already know the answer, it's right there in your own post: "if our standard of good is whether or not one has helped an animal..."

[Willum]

Good and conscientious people do not need the Bible or Jesus.

That would be the end of the industry and philosophy of creating a debt that doesn't exist (sin) and having you pay it.

[Goose]

If we need to ask this question we may as well not distinguish between good and evil.

But it’s a very relevant question to ask and strikes at the heart of your argument. Look, you made an assertion about what constitutes good. That is, good is doing things that make life better. I’m asking you why it is the case that making life better is good?

This illustrates the point that Christianity is about crushing man's goodness and emphasising his failings.

I’m not sure why my pithy Hitler and his goldfish remark illustrates this point. But I would agree that Christianity does make it a point to emphasize all of mankind is in the same state of having fallen short of God’s moral standard.

The lady in the story devoted her life to helping injured creatures;

Sure, but why is this good?

Hitler devoted his life to injuring others.

I presume you are suggesting Hitler’s actions were evil. But under an atheistic world view why is what Hitler did evil?

There's a small difference.

Yes there is a difference. But what is the relevance of that difference? If devoting one’s life to helping injured creatures is the standard for good then almost all of us fall short of that standard. Therefore there are very few people who we might say are good. This would seem to fly in the face of your assertion in your OP that “the world is full of good people.�

If he is, he shouldn't be.

Why shouldn’t God be the standard of good in the Christian world view?

And if we judge God by human standards we must condemn some of his reported acts: killing schoolboys for calling a man baldy;...

You mean those same human standards that say it’s moral for a mother to kill her young child by aborting it?

...killing Lot's wife because she was astonished at his destruction - and doing the destruction in the first place. In many ways man does a lot better in the goodness stakes than does Yahweh.

These are mere opinions about God. What makes your opinion right?

It's not too clear what this means. An atheist dismisses Yahweh, not his own dog which he places at a much higher level.

I know atheists do help animals. And I know atheists think this is good. Let me be a little clearer then. What I mean is in an atheistic world view, which likely entails naturalistic evolution and so on, why is it the case that it is good to help animals?

[Goose]

[Replying to post 3 by Goose]

Goose wrote:

"Assuming an atheistic world view, why is it good to help an animal(s)? They represent competition for resources."

If a man is dying from hunger in the wilderness and a wolf threatens to steal the rabbit he just killed for survival the wolf becomes competition for resources. I think this is true whether the man has an atheistic worldview or a Christian worldview.

So given the right circumstances those dogs and cats you help at the local shelter would become competition for resources. In fact, given the right set of circumstances you might be eating those dogs and cats.

My wife and I volunteer at our local Animal Shelter helping find homes for homeless dogs and cats. I hardly see these pets as competition for resources.

I think you may be latching on to a secondary point here and missing the salient one. I'm asking in an atheistic world view, why is it good to help animals?