There Is No Such Thing As Valid Prophecy

[RedEye]

Christians will often cite fulfilled prophecy as evidence for their religion being true. Ignoring the fact that none of these so-called fulfilled prophecies hold up to scrutiny when closely examined, is such biblical prophecy even possible in the first place?

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty. However, if the future is predetermined then there can be no such thing as human free will. Free will cannot exist in a universe where the course of the universe is already known in detail in advance. We could only be automatons acting out a predetermined script with no deviation possible.

That creates a dilemma for Christians who want both prophecy to be valid and free will to exist. They obviously can't have both.

If you are a Christian the question is, which one of these are you willing to give up and why?

[JehovahsWitness]

See post #22. We no longer have a disagreement.

I disagree. I invite you to refer to post #23 .

[RedEye]

See post #22. We no longer have a disagreement.

I disagree. I invite you to refer to post #23 .

I note your disagreement but I disagree that we have a disagreement if you read post #22.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 32 by RedEye]

Then we will have to agree to disagree, do you agree?

[William]

[Replying to post 27 by ttruscott]

Our will power is our ability to make a decison, but the word doesn't discriminate between a decision we are forced to make, or make because we are hypnotized or make because we have been lied to...all these decisions are created by our will.

That is because there is no requirement to discriminate. Will is will, regardless of circumstance.

A free will is free from any influence that we can't resist and forces us to choose one way and not another by a restriction or mental / physical force. An influence can be considered and ignored or followed; a coercion must be followed...and a free will decision cannot be so coerced.

Are you sure you want to open up that bag of snakes ttruscott? They will slither off in all kinds of directions and you will be hard pressed to account for them all.
One can ascertain immediately that such an argument requires judgement calls on every type of action involving the individual will and circumstance which cannot be easily be placed under headings of 'coercion' or 'non-coercion'. The fact that you make the claim without providing even one example of either shows the reader the difficulty involved in such judgment calls. As an argument, it appears to be clutching at straws at best.

I know discounting free as meaningful is your pet pov but it does not make the grade;

Easy for you to claim when arguing for something which does not itself 'make the grade' and has never made the grade. More often when pressed to provide answers to the hard questions which threaten to expose your position for its weaknesses, you simply slip into silence, only to come out again when the smoke has cleared, to continue arguing the same things that have been exposed as errant. Perhaps some H2H might be the way to go? I am up to it, how about you?

a coerced decision is not under the control of the person deciding...

Please provide an example.

...the person is not free to choose what they want or might want which is very meaningful when talking about people making bad decisions and punishing them for them.

Again, please provide an example.

[ttruscott]

a coerced decision is not under the control of the person deciding...

Please provide an example.

IF a person cannot think of rejecting GOD's laws for any alternative due to his nature at creation, then he is forced to always obey. People bound by irresistible forces such as dna, family and cultural values etc cannot have a free will as many thoughtful secularists admit.

...the person is not free to choose what they want or might want which is very meaningful when talking about people making bad decisions and punishing them for them.

Again, please provide an example.

IF GOD created all people sinful or with a sinful propensity so it is inevitable that they sin due to their created nature then the punishment of that sin is not just. Satan's fall therefore is indicative that he had a free, uncoerced, will since he was righteously condemned for his sin.

[William]

[Replying to post 35 by ttruscott]

a coerced decision is not under the control of the person deciding...

Please provide an example.

IF a person cannot think of rejecting GOD's laws for any alternative due to his nature at creation, then he is forced to always obey.

Where is the example therein? That is simply an 'if/then' hypothesis. What I asked for requires something substantial which can be examined. A real world example.

People bound by irresistible forces such as dna, family and cultural values etc cannot have a free will as many thoughtful secularists admit.

Perhaps in regard to dna and brain function these might qualify as being a type of coercion due to circumstance beyond ones ability to control, but in that, everyone could qualify. Family and cultural values can be overcome, as such things are not hardwired but rather are merely human social constructs...like religious belief is.

In the requirement to discriminate, which do you claim is under judgment? That which is coerced or that which isn't?

IF GOD created all people sinful or with a sinful propensity so it is inevitable that they sin due to their created nature then the punishment of that sin is not just.

The claim is that people sin. Therefore if GOD created forms which could be used to sin through, sin would simply be a part of the expected behavior and no judgement would be necessary or even ethical.

Indeed this is the difference between your idea of GOD and mine. My idea of GOD clearly does away with any hint of incompetence and shortsighted impatience...which is why I wrote in post #25

In relation to most Christian belief systems, the creator being displays as monstrous due mainly to the inability of said idea of that creator to be able to use eternity and infinity effectively to ensure that the eventual outcome is victim-less, because of the notion of everlasting hell and damnation.

The idea of an all knowing GOD coupled with the idea of an all loving GOD essentially would mean that such a creator would not have proceeded with the creation of this or any other universe, nor the placement of consciousness within it/them, if the GOD had foreseen there could be no eventual victim-less outcome somewhere along eternities road.

Too bad you chose to ignore the whole context of that post. Perhaps you might reconsider your argument and approach in relation to context.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 36 by William]

Indeed this is the difference between your idea of GOD and mine. My idea of GOD

I thoroughly agree that humans have "ideas" about "God".

Ideas are formed in our minds ...

And may not exist anywhere else.

It's when we insist that our "ideas" concerning "God" are real that we have a problem.

If we all acknowledge we are playing variations of the great big game of Pretend called religion ...

There may be a little more peace in the playpens.

[William]

[Replying to post 37 by StuartJ]

I thoroughly agree that humans have "ideas" about "God".

Ideas are formed in our minds ...

And may not exist anywhere else.

It's when we insist that our "ideas" concerning "God" are real that we have a problem.

If we all acknowledge we are playing variations of the great big game of Pretend called religion ...

There may be a little more peace in the playpens.

Ideas of GOD have to follow logic to even be considered reasonable. I have yet to be shown logically that a creator GOD cannot exist, and that we are not all aspects of the same...playing a game of hide and seek from our self.

Perhaps therein GOD is not found or discovered, but rather realized in wholeness and unity...something the universe appears to display as a rather obvious hint.

I do notice that many atheists love getting involved in the 'playpens' too.

As to our minds. I am one who thinks the mind is more than what the individual brain produces.


♦ GOD is the subjective and all objective experience is in the mind of GOD

And without imagination, human beings could not have come as far as we have, so lets not belittle that either.

Condescending Ideas About Imagination
Is it correct to delegate imagination as 'woo'?

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 38 by William]

I have yet to be shown logically that a creator GOD cannot exist,

Neither have I.

And I've yet to be shown that ANY version of "God" exists outside the human imagination.

Even if human-written "scriptures", and the universe, and things we don't have answers for, look like they are giving our imaginations "hints" ....

[William]

[Replying to post 39 by StuartJ]

I've yet to be shown that ANY version of "God" exists outside the human imagination.

Shown, in what way? Scientifically?

Often atheists insist that all ideas of GOD should be able to be verifiable. In this they are arguing that there should be "verifiable evidence" in relation to all and any ideas of GOD.

However, there are ideas of GOD which - even given they are within the context of the experience of the physical universe, are unable to be shown to be real in terms of what is real which can be scientifically verified.

IF:
The main idea is that GOD is a self aware individual consciousness which possibly exists everywhere simultaneously;
THEN:
There is no known way presently, in which this can be verifiable through scientific method.

If there is, then I would like to hear from any atheist who demand "verifiable evidence" of such an entity, to explain what this "verifiable evidence" would have to consist of.

That would be the most logical response I could have to any demand of Burden of Proof in relation to that idea of GOD.

♦ Burden of Proof - The scientific way to examine "verifiable evidence"

Even if human-written "scriptures", and the universe, and things we don't have answers for, look like they are giving our imaginations "hints" ....

Well one can either ignore the hints or attend to them. Each to their own...