Did God betray his chosen people?

[marco]

We cannot of course question the ways of Yahweh. We are told he so loved the world etc. But likewise, he so loved the Jewish people that he sent his son among them to belittle their esteemed prophet Abraham, elevate himself to the level of the sole God they adored, then had himself crucified with blame falling on them, thus making them pariahs through the ages.



Does this signal a betrayal by God, a desertion of the people he once favoured, a preparation for their agonies in the Holocaust?

God wanted his son tortured and killed - but why did he choose the Jews as his excutioners? Christ could have been run over by a chariot, and he could still have redeemed mankind..... or was crucifixion a necessary component?

[JehovahsWitness]

WOULD THE RANSOM HAVE BEEN PAID IF JESUS HAD BEEN KILLED ACCIDENTALLY?

• ♦ ANSWER No, the ransom had to be a sacrifice not an accident. The Ransom was to be the exact equivalent to what Adam had done, his rebellion was an act of willful disobedience, so the ransom would need to be the ultimate act of obedience. Satan made plenty of attempts to kill Jesus before he could completed his mission but God protected his son from any deliberate or accidental act that would have denied him (Jesus) the opportunity to offer his life freely of his own volition.

RELATED POSTS

Would the ransom have been valid if Jesus had committed suicide?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 847#909847

Did Jesus commit "suicide"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 162#357162

Would Jesus' death be classified as what would today be called "victim precipitated homicide"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 213#357213

What kind of people mock the execution of Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 200#933200

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[Willum]

Given human nature, and the inevitability of time, were such a god true, he's betrayed them over and over again.

[RedEye]

We cannot of course question the ways of Yahweh. We are told he so loved the world etc. But likewise, he so loved the Jewish people that he sent his son among them to belittle their esteemed prophet Abraham, elevate himself to the level of the sole God they adored, then had himself crucified with blame falling on them, thus making them pariahs through the ages.

Does this signal a betrayal by God, a desertion of the people he once favoured, a preparation for their agonies in the Holocaust?

God wanted his son tortured and killed - but why did he choose the Jews as his excutioners? Christ could have been run over by a chariot, and he could still have redeemed mankind..... or was crucifixion a necessary component?

It has always struck me as rather ironic how Christians have appropriated Jewish scripture as being nothing more than a signpost to their (Jewish) messiah who would become the figurehead for a new religion which ended up severely persecuting adherents of Judaism. It's like Christians believe that God cuckolded the Jewish prophets, using them only to birth their eventual oppressors. On top of that insult they then fixed the blame for the death of their messiah on the Jews as you have explained. First you appropriate their literature and then you demonize them so that they can't challenge you about ownership. Steps A and B in creating a new religion.

[JehovahsWitness]

HAS THE JEWISH NATION BEEN CURSED FOR HAVING REJECTED JESUS?

• ♦ ANSWER No, they as a nation lost out on a special blessing but they were not cursed, at least not by God.
  
  • The decendants of Abraham had been offered a wonderful opportunity, that of being the sole nation from which God would choose Jesus co-rulers. All the members of God's heavenly government, destined to rule over the entire planet earth would have therefore been selected from the descendants of Abraham. Tragically, as a nation, the Jews failed to accept Jesus as their long promised Messiah, their religious leaders going so far as to clamour for his execution. Since they had rejected God's representative, they lost this unique privilege and the offer was opened to to non Jews.
  WHY THEN HAVE THE JEWS SO SUFFERED?
  
  • It is arguable if, as a demographic the Jews have suffered more than other groups throughout history, but they have indeed been the subject of much ill treatement. When their time as God's favoured nation came to an end, they became (as is the case for all nations) part of the world system of things, which is biblically under the control Satan the devil (see 2 Cor r:4). The only group thereafter that would enjoy Gods direct hand of guidance and protection would be the spirit anointed born again Christians and those associated with them.
    
    Whether Satan subsequently targeted the Jews, now stripped of divine protection, I don't think anyone can say for sure, but given his (Satan's ) vindictive nature, and his long history of trying to wipe them out, I personally don't think it's beyond the realms of reason to think he subsequently took a perverted pleasure in their suffering. The religious leaders, representing the nation, proclaimed, "Let his blood come upon us and upon our children", as Jesus stood before Pilate, who knows if Satan was listening and took them at their word.
    
    
  
  RELATED POSTS
  
  Is "replacement theology" despicable?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 158#857158
  
  Did God forsake his people?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 250#857250
  
  Did Jesus really intend to start a new religion?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 645#792645
  
  Why did the Jews not protest Jesus arrest?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 264#920264

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[Willum]

[quote="JehovahsWitness"]
HAS THE JEWISH NATION BEEN CURSED FOR HAVING REJECTED JESUS?

ANSWER Yes.

It really doesn't need any further explanation. We're not idiots.

[marco]

HAS THE JEWISH NATION BEEN CURSED FOR HAVING REJECTED JESUS?

• ♦ ANSWER No, they as a nation lost out on a special blessing but they were not cursed, at least not by God.
  
  Tragically, as a nation, the Jews failed to accept Jesus as their long promised Messiah, their religious leaders going so far as to clamour for his execution.

The problem with human evaluation of God's plans is it is flawed, being human. Earlier it was pointed out that the fate Jesus met was the one outlined for him; an accident would not have sufficed, nor suicide. Going along with this nonsense, let's look at this latest investigation into God's planning. The Jews could have accepted Jesus and all would have been well - except he wouldn't then have been crucified, so he would have had to go off and annoy somebody else. This is called theology!

[marco]

No, the ransom had to be a sacrifice not an accident. The Ransom was to be the exact equivalent to what Adam had done, his rebellion was an act of willful disobedience, so the ransom would need to be the ultimate act of obedience. Satan made plenty of attempts to kill Jesus before he could completed his mission but God protected his son from any deliberate or accidental act that would have denied him (Jesus) the opportunity to offer his life freely of his own volition. [/list]

I think it is amusing that some earthings think they've ascended strotospherically and come upon God's private documents, enabling them to explain divine secrets. The terms of God's legal contract with his boy are known to some theological lawyers.

The exact equivalent of what Adam had done would be for Jesus to eat a piece of forbidden fruit, maybe figuratively; or he might spit out what Adam ate and return the fruit to the tree thus magicaly restoring harmony. What has been done cannot usually be undone, unless you're God or God's son.The rubbish about Satan trying to assassinate Jesus (with a penknife, maybe?) presumably refers to the imaginary "trials" when Christ was alone - unwitnessed !- in the desert. God "protected" his son from the bad devil - as we know from reading God's memoirs.

And the sad thing is, none of this is said in jest. There are pockets of humanity that take this seriously.

[marco]

HAS THE JEWISH NATION BEEN CURSED FOR HAVING REJECTED JESUS?

ANSWER Yes.

It really doesn't need any further explanation. We're not idiots.

The quote from Matthew 27 - "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children" - is possibly the vilest piece of propaganda in the NT. The word "all" is used to inflame, to cause hatred. Who is meant by"all" ? The entire nation of Jews? It is inconceivable that a group of people would call down a curse on their unborn children but it is not inconceivable that writers would make up this story. The results in history have been horrendous, which indicates the evil side of the Bible. In some ways it is a handbook of hate, pretending to offer love.


"A goodly apple rotten at the core.

O what a goodly outside falsehood hath."

The Jews were betrayed by BIble writers.

[marco]

On top of that insult they then fixed the blame for the death of their messiah on the Jews as you have explained. First you appropriate their literature and then you demonize them so that they can't challenge you about ownership. Steps A and B in creating a new religion.

I think there are belated Christian attempts to apologise for the hate and hurt they caused. But erasing the wicked verse about Jews bringing a curse on themselves might be a first step in the right direction.

Muslims might find it harder to erase offensive verses in their book, but that was written by God. The Bible wasn't.