Jesus died for HIS sins

[Willum]

Most theists deny Caesar was worshiped as a god.
But he was.
Most theists claim it is OK to venerate a false god, so long as you recognize it is a false god.
Except they are all false gods, except one, right?
Most theists claim there can be nothing wrong with paying tax.
Unless that tax is the worship a god desires and those coins are engraved images proclaiming the divinity of other gods.

Most theists claim Jesus, who had no authority to the Jewish people as a Rabbi, proclaimed an adulteress could go free with a strawman (and are fooled by the strawman).
But, either she was guilty, and according to God's laws, should have been stoned, and violating it was violating God's laws, or the people bearing false witness against her should have been punished. Either way, someone should have been punished. Failing that, Jesus should have been.

So lets examine why Jesus was killed.
Most say Jesus CLEVERLY avoided "traps."

I can't help but notice he was justifiably, in the eyes of the Jews, killed for blasphemy.
1. He said it was OK to follow the desires of the god Caesar.
2. He said it was OK to use coins decrying the divinity of Rome's gods.
3. He abrogated the punishment for either adultery or bearing false witness.

There is no Judaic world view where his only punishment could be anything other than death.
(And why did he get a Roman trial, when the adulteress got a public spectacle?)

If you were a Judaist, is there any reason you would not be obligated by your belief in the true God, to have Jesus killed?

Please try to look at it from their point of view.

[jeremiah1five]

Most theists deny Caesar was worshiped as a god.
But he was.
Most theists claim it is OK to venerate a false god, so long as you recognize it is a false god.
Except they are all false gods, except one, right?
Most theists claim there can be nothing wrong with paying tax.
Unless that tax is the worship a god desires and those coins are engraved images proclaiming the divinity of other gods.

Most theists claim Jesus, who had no authority to the Jewish people as a Rabbi, proclaimed an adulteress could go free with a strawman (and are fooled by the strawman).
But, either she was guilty, and according to God's laws, should have been stoned, and violating it was violating God's laws, or the people bearing false witness against her should have been punished. Either way, someone should have been punished. Failing that, Jesus should have been.

So lets examine why Jesus was killed.
Most say Jesus CLEVERLY avoided "traps."

I can't help but notice he was justifiably, in the eyes of the Jews, killed for blasphemy.
1. He said it was OK to follow the desires of the god Caesar.
2. He said it was OK to use coins decrying the divinity of Rome's gods.
3. He abrogated the punishment for either adultery or bearing false witness.

There is no Judaic world view where his only punishment could be anything other than death.
(And why did he get a Roman trial, when the adulteress got a public spectacle?)

If you were a Judaist, is there any reason you would not be obligated by your belief in the true God, to have Jesus killed?

Please try to look at it from their point of view.

Jesus was killed because that is what the disobedient "Jews" did to the prophets God sent them, however in this case, the "Jews" killed their own Messiah knowing He was their Messiah.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 2 by jeremiah1five]

If they knew he was the Messiah, they wouldn't have killed him.
What do you think they are, idiots?

Your answer is completely illogical, and that's being polite.

No, they killed him for multiple blasphemies, at least that is a premise you should disprove.

[Divine Insight]

Jesus died for HIS sins

From a secular perspective it may be true that Jesus died because of his own rebellious actions against authorities, as well as blaspheme against the orthodox Jewish religion of the time.

However from a theological perspective Jesus couldn't have died for anyone's sins. At least not in the sense of paying for those sins in terms of the payment for sins is the sense of "the wages of sin is death".

Jesus didn't stay dead. Therefore he did not pay the wages of sin for anyone, not even for himself. In fact, in these theological stories Jesus was risen from the dead and granted eternal life in heaven, sitting at the right-hand of God no less. And that is not the "Wages of Sin"

So Jesus didn't die for anyone's sins in a theological sense.

Every Christian dreams of being resurrected after they die and being taken up into heaven. That is not the "wages of sin". So Jesus couldn't have paid the wages of sin for anyone. He would have needed to stay dead in order for that claim to be valid.

But I agree Jesus was indeed crucified for his own misbehavior. If you want to call that "sins". He was violent when he overturned the money tables in the temple violating the civility of the temple. He was arrogant, accusing the Pharisees of extreme sins and of deserving the greater damnation. And he was blasphemous by claiming that he and God were one. This wouildn't be blasphemous in a pantheistic religion, but it was certainly blaspheme in the religion of the Jews. And yes, you are correct, their God had commanded them to kill those who blaspheme against God. So they were only doing what their God had commanded them to do when they condemned Jesus to death.

Their God would have needed to be a complete idiot to command these people to kill blasphemers and then send his demigod half-human Son to go into this culture and claim to be one and the same as God. That would be certain grounds for killing him for blaspheme.

So the Jews were only doing what their God had instructed them to do.

Christianity makes no sense. And as you say,...

Most theists claim Jesus, who had no authority to the Jewish people as a Rabbi, proclaimed an adulteress could go free with a strawman (and are fooled by the strawman).
But, either she was guilty, and according to God's laws, should have been stoned, and violating it was violating God's laws, or the people bearing false witness against her should have been punished. Either way, someone should have been punished. Failing that, Jesus should have been.

Exactly.

Not only this but the story gives itself away when Jesus tells the woman. "Go and sin no more". He's actually acknowledging that she had indeed been guilty. Otherwise why tell her to "sin no more"?

Whoever made up these stories wasn't thinking at all.

Also Jesus tells the crowd, "He who is without sin cast the first stone".

Well duh? If they aren't supposed to be stoning sinner to death why tell people who are without sin to cast the first stone?

If this was a trap to catch Jesus, then they caught Jesus right then and there.

All they had to day to Jesus at that point was, "Is the woman supposed to be stoned to death or not?"

And what's this claim that only those who are without sin should do the stoning? Where is that written in the Old Testament?

In fact, what kind of an idiot would the original God need to be to command men to stone sinners to death if only those men who are without sin should do it?

Didn't this God already know that no human can ever be without sin?

Jesus (or whoever made up these silly stories) wasn't thinking at all.

Moreover, if the Pharisees fell for this, then they too would need to have been idiots.

He who is without sin cast the first stone?

Yeah right. That gives away the whole thing right there.

Proof positive that Jesus can't be speaking for any actual God.

Sure, this answer sounds "clever", but unfortunately it requires that the God of the Old Testament would need to have been a complete idiot for having commanded men to stone sinners to death in the first place if only men who are free of sin are to cast those stones.

So this little story reveals the fallacy Christ and Christianity.

At best, Jesus was a smart-aleck who was just lucky that the pharisees were complete idiots and didn't catch the errors Jesus was creating. If it was their plan to catch him in scriptural errors, then they caught him dead-to-rights right there. If they missed that opportunity then they were just easily-fooled idiots.

[1213]

Most theists claim there can be nothing wrong with paying tax.

Person who must pay taxes is slave. I am against slavery.

I can't help but notice he was justifiably, in the eyes of the Jews, killed for blasphemy.
1. He said it was OK to follow the desires of the god Caesar.
2. He said it was OK to use coins decrying the divinity of Rome's gods.
3. He abrogated the punishment for either adultery or bearing false witness.

Your lie is really disturbing. Jesus didn’t say “it is ok to follow the desires of the god Ceasar�. Jesus said, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.� Mark 12:17.

Also, forgiveness has never been illegal in Biblical law.

Interesting thing in the Bible is also this, where Jews say:
"It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"
John 18:31

[Willum]

[Replying to post 5 by 1213]

Person who must pay taxes is slave. I am against slavery.

Taxes are how a government recoups the money it has lent out. SMH.

Your lie is really disturbing. Jesus didn’t say “it is ok to follow the desires of the god Ceasar�. Jesus said, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.� Mark 12:17.

It is my truth that is disturbing you.
The desires of the god Caesar were to pay a blasphemous tax.

You don't see how much more blasphemous statement is, then? He said to render Caesar all things that are his.

Why don't YOU render to the God Caesar all the things that are his.
See how Yahweh would like it.

Besides, any chance of you looking at it from the Judaic perspective, instead of your own anachronistic one?

[Divine Insight]

Also, forgiveness has never been illegal in Biblical law.

In that case, then why did the Biblical God command men to stone sinners to death in the first place?

Why didn't he just command them to forgive the sinners?

I don't see where Jesus can be used to justify Yahweh.

And you also seem to be ignoring the fact that Jesus told those who are without sin to cast the first stone. This suggests that Jesus was, in some truly lame way, trying to stand behind the commandment to stone sinners to death, whilst simultaneously proclaiming that basically no human has the right to do it because only it should only be done by people who are without sin.

So to simply say that forgiveness has never been illegal in Biblical Law doesn't cut it.

Also the Old Testament actually forbids forgiveness in several cases.

Deut.19:
[13] Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.
[21] And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Deut.25:12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.

According to various places in the Old Testament forgiveness is indeed illegal.

So you are actually wrong to say that forgiveness has never been illegal in Biblical law.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 5 by 1213]

Person who must pay taxes is slave. I am against slavery.

Do you pay tithes?

[bjs]

First let me correct some factual mistakes in this thread.

Nearly all Christians, and theists in general, agree that Caesar was worshiped as a god, though the word “worship� is elastic and can look very different in different settings.

Nearly all Christians, and theists in general, say that it is not OK to venerate false gods in any setting.

Nearly all Christians, and theists in general, say that you should still pay your taxes even if you don’t like how the money is used, though we have the right to petition our government about how that money is used.

There are a few other false statements, but I will skip head from there. The rare accurate claim is also the central claim of this post:

I can't help but notice he was justifiably, in the eyes of the Jews, killed for blasphemy.

Yes, Jesus was executed for blaspheme. He claimed to be God. Not in the way that Caesar was thought of as a God. Jesus claimed to be the one and only living God, the eternal creator of the Universe and unique Son of God the Father.

The Sanhedrin (the ruling Jewish body in Jerusalem at that time) believed the claim was false and sought to have Jesus executed for it.

If the claim is false then Jesus did commit blaspheme, and it led to his execution. If the claim is true then it still led to his execution, but then He is God and capable of rising from the dead.

[jeremiah1five]

[Replying to post 2 by jeremiah1five]

If they knew he was the Messiah, they wouldn't have killed him.
What do you think they are, idiots?

Your answer is completely illogical, and that's being polite.

No, they killed him for multiple blasphemies, at least that is a premise you should disprove.

Willum, I can handle anything you throw at me as I'm not one of those spineless un-indoctrinated Christians who is possessing heresy that God loves all people and that we must all take the gospel to every creature which is lie, but there are Moderators here and rules that prevent Christians from exercising their call and their gifts as we must all leave our Christianity at the log in page, but I appreciate your politeness. For the sake of participation that is.

Now, there was much debate about this Person named Jesus son of Joseph the carpenter such as they couldn't find anywhere in the OT Scripture a prophet coming out of Nazareth, or that He healed the real sick and possessed as well as raise the dead. THEY KNEW - at least the appointed high priest, Caiaphas (Annas was the real high priest of the "Jews"), that these things were inescapable to say the least and it doesn't need to say exactly "they knew He was their Messiah, their Kinsman-Redeemer, and all that, but to the student of the Word who is familiar with the Scripture would know that the religious leaders were aware of this Man as being someone to reckon with as the people were saying ALL KINDS of things about Him in their homes, on the street, in the market-place, even during worship and High Days...

John 11:47-53 (KJV)
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.