I would like to point to this book ( or Paul's Discourse) and hear your opinion about it:
http://thelight.support/shorterroad.html
http://thelightuniversal.org/page75.html
Should everybody read it?
I think it takes the debate to another level. Here we have Paul explaining it all to us. But maybe it is not Paul? Let us put that aside and hear what is being said. To me it sounds like the truth. Can the truth be defeated? How? What are your "arguments" for the doctrine of atonement? Or against it?
Is the doctrine of atonement true?
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ElCodeMonkey
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Re: Is the doctrine of atonement true?
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by Waterfall]
It's highly unlikely that someone will read all of what you link to and pick out all the interesting bits you'd like them to see. This post seems a lot like click-bait.
That said, having glanced through what was linked, I'd like to add to your argument that Jesus was not expected to be perfect in the old testament. Isaiah 7:14-15 says Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.
A Jew can correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that they didn't expect God in the flesh but rather someone who will bring Israel back on top and destroy all their enemies, etc. I haven't studied Judaism much though, just that they don't see the promises of the Messiah in Jesus. Christians see it fulfilled from a more "spiritual kingdom" standpoint while Jews expected an earthly one. Hence the conflict.
As for atonement itself, I think sacrifice was never desired to begin with. The idea of sacrifice was part of the corruption that came from mingling with other religions that did it. Prophets came and tried to set it straight by saying that God is done with the stupid sacrifices and wants people to just be good, but they tended to kill such prophets and then incorporate parts of their messages into their scripture without owning to everything they said properly. So since sacrifice was never to be desired, neither is atonement accurate and was later attributed to the murder as a return to the original Pharisaic ways that Jesus repudiated. A sad tale for all prophets...
Scripture: Anti-Sacrifice
Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; my ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
Psalm 51:16-17
For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart—These, O God, You will not despise.
Proverbs 21:2-3
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts. To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
Isaiah 1:10-13a
“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?� Says the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. When you come to appear before Me, Who has required this from your hand, to trample My courts? Bring no more futile sacrifices.
Isaiah 66:2b-4a
“But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word. “He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck; he who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood; he who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol. Just as they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, and bring their fears on them;
Jeremiah 7:20-23
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, My anger and My fury will be poured out on this place—on man and on beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground. And it will burn and not be quenched.� Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. [sarcasm] For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’
Hosea 6:5-7
Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets, I have slain them by the words of My mouth; and your judgments are like light that goes forth. For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But like men they transgressed the covenant;
Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice’
Matthew 12:7
But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless
Mark 12:33
And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.�
If love is worth more than all the burnt offerings and sacrifice,s then clearly they were not needed to begin with. We simply needed to focus on love.
Acts 7:42
Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets: ‘Did you offer Me slaughtered animals and sacrifices during forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? You have taken up the tabernacle of Molek and the star of your god Rephan, the idols you made to worship.
The answer is no, they did not do any sacrifices during the 40 years in the desert. Thus, he is saying that it was not worthwhile to do so and doing so is merely following the path of Molek—a man-made idol.
It's highly unlikely that someone will read all of what you link to and pick out all the interesting bits you'd like them to see. This post seems a lot like click-bait.
That said, having glanced through what was linked, I'd like to add to your argument that Jesus was not expected to be perfect in the old testament. Isaiah 7:14-15 says Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.
A Jew can correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that they didn't expect God in the flesh but rather someone who will bring Israel back on top and destroy all their enemies, etc. I haven't studied Judaism much though, just that they don't see the promises of the Messiah in Jesus. Christians see it fulfilled from a more "spiritual kingdom" standpoint while Jews expected an earthly one. Hence the conflict.
As for atonement itself, I think sacrifice was never desired to begin with. The idea of sacrifice was part of the corruption that came from mingling with other religions that did it. Prophets came and tried to set it straight by saying that God is done with the stupid sacrifices and wants people to just be good, but they tended to kill such prophets and then incorporate parts of their messages into their scripture without owning to everything they said properly. So since sacrifice was never to be desired, neither is atonement accurate and was later attributed to the murder as a return to the original Pharisaic ways that Jesus repudiated. A sad tale for all prophets...
Scripture: Anti-Sacrifice
Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; my ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
Psalm 51:16-17
For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart—These, O God, You will not despise.
Proverbs 21:2-3
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts. To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
Isaiah 1:10-13a
“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?� Says the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. When you come to appear before Me, Who has required this from your hand, to trample My courts? Bring no more futile sacrifices.
Isaiah 66:2b-4a
“But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word. “He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck; he who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood; he who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol. Just as they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, and bring their fears on them;
Jeremiah 7:20-23
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, My anger and My fury will be poured out on this place—on man and on beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground. And it will burn and not be quenched.� Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. [sarcasm] For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’
Hosea 6:5-7
Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets, I have slain them by the words of My mouth; and your judgments are like light that goes forth. For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But like men they transgressed the covenant;
Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice’
Matthew 12:7
But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless
Mark 12:33
And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.�
If love is worth more than all the burnt offerings and sacrifice,s then clearly they were not needed to begin with. We simply needed to focus on love.
Acts 7:42
Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets: ‘Did you offer Me slaughtered animals and sacrifices during forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? You have taken up the tabernacle of Molek and the star of your god Rephan, the idols you made to worship.
The answer is no, they did not do any sacrifices during the 40 years in the desert. Thus, he is saying that it was not worthwhile to do so and doing so is merely following the path of Molek—a man-made idol.
I'm Published! Christians Are Revolting: An Infidel's Progress
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My Current Beliefs.
My Blog: Friendly By Nurture
The Wisdom I've gleaned.
My Current Beliefs.
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Waterfall
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Re: Is the doctrine of atonement true?
Post #3[Replying to post 2 by ElCodeMonkey]
Thank you for your kind respond.
I do not know what click-bait is...hmm...
The first link was just for context. The second link was for people to read and think about (it takes about 30-45 minutes to read it). For those who find it interesting I would point to this book:
http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/
It is an amazing book.
The only problem I have with this book is the description of the universe. But maybe there are other problems? I just like the book. To me it sounds like the truth. That is why I point to it.
And thank you for your explaination and "Scripture: Anti-Sacrifice".
I have much to learn.
Thank you for your kind respond.
I do not know what click-bait is...hmm...
The first link was just for context. The second link was for people to read and think about (it takes about 30-45 minutes to read it). For those who find it interesting I would point to this book:
http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/
It is an amazing book.
The only problem I have with this book is the description of the universe. But maybe there are other problems? I just like the book. To me it sounds like the truth. That is why I point to it.
And thank you for your explaination and "Scripture: Anti-Sacrifice".
I have much to learn.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Is the doctrine of atonement true?
Post #4Sacrificial atonement is a basic principle in both the Hebrew and the Christian scriptures. The bible remains therefore my principle reason for believing in it. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and we accept the bible as God's word and the authority on all things religious.Waterfall wrote: What are your "arguments" for the doctrine of atonement? Or against it?
..presumably we should trust Mr and Mrs Agerskov (probably from the Fabien Society or some such school of thought) over and above inspired scripture. This I believe would be a gross error.Your source states:
the Gospels ... must be, and in fact are, inaccurate on many points
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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myth-one.com
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Re: Is the doctrine of atonement true?
Post #5No.Waterfall wrote: Is the doctrine of atonement true?
All mankind is appointed once to die:
Jesus' death on the cross was His appointed death as a consequence of being born a human.Hebrews 9:27 wrote:And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Since it was appointed, it cannot be an atonement for others.
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Waterfall
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Re: Is the doctrine of atonement true?
Post #6The bible is your authority...not the truth?JehovahsWitness wrote:
Sacrificial atonement is a basic principle in both the Hebrew and the Christian scriptures. The bible remains therefore my principle reason for believing in it. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and we accept the bible as God's word and the authority on all things religious.
This book claim to be inspired:
http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/
To me it is a great lovestory...but is it true? Time will tell. I do not know. That is my position. Should it not be true then it would not make the bible true. One "lie" does not make another "lie" true. What is the truth? Who knows?
Should we trust Mr and Mrs Agerskov? In what way? To me they were truthseekers and much better people than me. Do you know anything about them? Are you danish? What information are available to you? Probably from the Fabien Society or some such school of thought...did that just pop up in your head? Why?JehovahsWitness wrote:
..presumably we should trust Mr and Mrs Agerskov (probably from the Fabien Society or some such school of thought) over and above inspired scripture. This I believe would be a gross error.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society
What do this has to do with them?
If you want to learn about them then you might want to read this book:
http://thelightuniversal.org/page4.html
Maybe we should go back to the topic...have you read the book (or Paul's Discourse):
http://thelightuniversal.org/page75.html
How will you defend the doctrine of atonement? What are you up against? Paul himself? According to you he is dead and not risen yet, so...what are we to do? How can we debate this? ECM and MOC (thanks for that) has come with some things, so...?
I also find this relevant to think about (post 4):
viewtopic.php?p=943169#943169
How can I get Divine Insights brain
I hope you like music because I think we need some divine intervention here
A good day to you.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Is the doctrine of atonement true?
Post #7Waterfall wrote:The bible is your authority...not the truth?JehovahsWitness wrote:
Sacrificial atonement is a basic principle in both the Hebrew and the Christian scriptures. The bible remains therefore my principle reason for believing in it. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and we accept the bible as God's word and the authority on all things religious.
I believe the bible is God's word and God's word *is* truth. If any human teaching or theology conflicts with the bible, it's that teaching/ book/website/ couple.... that is in error, not God.
JOHN 17:17
"Sanctify them by means of the truth;+ your word is truth." JESUS CHRIST
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Is the doctrine of atonement true?
Post #8[Replying to post 6 by Waterfall]
DEMONS, WITCHES AND SPIRIT MEDIUMS
Under the mosaic law "spirit mediums" were to be put to death. The bible warns against consulting with spirit mediums because, far from communicating with good angels and helpful spirits, all spirit mediums are considered biblically as being in communication with demons (fallen angels) bent on misleading people from the divine truths found in the bible.
I believe If this is the source of the information it is demonic in origin and should be avoided at all cost.
JW
DEMONS, WITCHES AND SPIRIT MEDIUMS
Your source states
" In 1908 a medium was contacted by intelligences from the spiritual world."
Under the mosaic law "spirit mediums" were to be put to death. The bible warns against consulting with spirit mediums because, far from communicating with good angels and helpful spirits, all spirit mediums are considered biblically as being in communication with demons (fallen angels) bent on misleading people from the divine truths found in the bible.
I believe If this is the source of the information it is demonic in origin and should be avoided at all cost.
JW
RELATED POSTS
Is there such a thing as "demon trickery"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 019#928019
Who alone can distinguish between good spirits and bad?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 276#943276
Can an encounter with a demon be a pleasant/pleasurable experience?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 072#836072
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Waterfall
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Re: Is the doctrine of atonement true?
Post #9But how will you defend the doctrine of atonement? Lets say I was the author of this book (or Paul's Discource):JehovahsWitness wrote:
I believe the bible is God's word and God's word *is* truth. If any human teaching or theology conflicts with the bible, it's that teaching/ book/website/ couple.... that is in error, not God.
http://thelightuniversal.org/page75.html
Why is my thinking wrong?
Who was Jesus talking about?JehovahsWitness wrote:
JOHN 17:17
"Sanctify them by means of the truth;+ your word is truth." JESUS CHRIST
I understand that you want to follow the truth...but what is the truth?
Are the world changing for the better or worse?
I like to listen to this man.
There is just something great about him:
Hope you like music and danse
Do you believe God really taught this?
Post #10JW posted.
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
Do you really believe that is God's word?
RESPONSE: Then you believe that Jesus was really born twice (Matthew vs Luke) and slaughtering of unbelievers is taught by God?"The bible remains therefore my principle reason for believing in it. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and we accept the bible as God's word and the authority on all things religious."
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
Do you really believe that is God's word?
