Telling Demons from God

[ElCodeMonkey]

If one "spirit" tells you X and another tells you NOT X, how do you know which is right? I imagine, for a lot of people, you'll likely say "well does it jive with the Bible?" Barring the fact that most things can be forced to jive if you want it too, how do we know it wasn't a demon who whispered the idea to take the Bible as God's word to begin with? What if that whole concept was a demon whisper and the God whisper is "ugh, listen to me, not the book!" and we unjustly turn away the God-whisper? Of course, it's just as possible that God is saying to follow the book while a demon says to follow him. So how does one tell them apart? How do you know which is God and which is demon and especially if disagreeing about the book itself? Why default to believing the "follow the book" one without a good reason? Please note, the book cannot give an authoritative answer on this. It could contain useful advice, but not with authority on the matter of determining its own authority. So how do you tell spirits apart?

[William]

[Replying to post 42 by 2timothy316]

People have been faking exorcisms for centuries.

Point being, re the OP blurb, how is one to know the real from the fake? Even the story of demons being cast from one individual into a herd of pigs which then became suicidal, could be fake.

The whole idea of demons/demons possessing human forms could be fake.

[Replying to post 48 by 2timothy316]

Did Jesus cast out demons to help or make money?

"Are demons real and do they exist within human forms?" are the better questions.
It appears that apart from movies and stories, they do not. Thus one has to question whether Jesus cast anything out of any human.

Your answer, such as it is, avoided answering my question, so I will ask you again;

Q: Have you personally witnessed a 'true' exorcism, and if so, by what means did you establish the event was true?

[Tcg]

If one "spirit" tells you X and another tells you NOT X, how do you know which is right?

If one is hearing voices that don't emanate from people, neither voice is right.

One possible diagnoses would be psychosis.

High fevers can also cause hallucinations, so a visit to qualified doctor would be advised.

[ttruscott]

If one "spirit" tells you X and another tells you NOT X, how do you know which is right?

If one is hearing voices that don't emanate from people, neither voice is right.

One possible diagnoses would be psychosis.

High fevers can also cause hallucinations, so a visit to qualified doctor would be advised.

Oh, absolutely anything derogatory rather than actually hearing the voice of GOD? What's a poor prophet to do?? At least we have 1 Corinthians 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. and others to bolster our faith that we are not delusional nor hallucinatory...

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 52 by ttruscott]

Oh, absolutely anything derogatory rather than actually hearing the voice of GOD? What's a poor prophet to do??

Given that there are numerous mundane explanations for hearing voices, one would expect that there are clear criteria that can be applied that allows one to determine irrefutably that the source is God rather than something else.

At least we have 1 Corinthians 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

A clear case of ENCS (Emperor's New Clothes Syndrome) where the believer is offered an out for when they are more likely delusional or hallucinatory. If you recall, the emperor was actually naked.

[marco]

Both arguing the analogy instead of the reality it was used to highlight AND taking the analogy, not the reality, to absurdity are logical fallacies...

(a) We can say an analogy is not appropriate. No fallacy

(b) I reached no absurdity; I commented on the inappropriate use of sheep to describe human beings. As it happens, there's nothing absurd in the analogy. Christ wants sheep. In fact it perfectly describes the state of people who kneel in subservience to various suggestions.

[brianbbs67]

I would just add, If God communicates with no one, why would we even consider Him? The whole of scriptures is about waiting and hoping for His instruction. He can't instruct or guide or shepard, from silence. So, we all hope for His input like in the scripture and when someone says they have heard it, we say they are nuts and God doesn't talk to just anyone(which should be thoroughly tested). Yet, the whole of scripture is about Him picking the King, the outcast, the unbeliever, the drunk, the vain, the evil and glory hungry, and using them for His purpose. (Nebakanezzar was His servant, also)

[ttruscott]

(b) I reached no absurdity; I commented on the inappropriate use of sheep to describe human beings. As it happens, there's nothing absurd in the analogy. Christ wants sheep. In fact it perfectly describes the state of people who kneel in subservience to various suggestions.

The appropriateness of Christ calling His people sheep is found in the fact that sheep are (rightly or wrongly) considered one of the stupidest animals alive...even stupider than turkeys. Sheep have apparently died of water deprivation because the can't get to the water between two trees but won't back up and go around. It is not that sheep are "people who kneel in subservience", but that they are stupid.

All references to sheep are in the context of sheep gone astray into sin and sheep returned. To have put your faith in YHWH so as to join HIS family and Church and then to throw that away because you are now safe from hell and can indulge yourself in idolizing the demonic reprobate over your GOD's command to come out from among them so they can be judged is indeed as foolish as a dumb sheep...very apropos...so I am not against the analogy but by arguing the analogy, you miss the point of the reality.

One thing about the sinful elect that proves they are the stupidest people in existence is that they effectively have alienated BOTH GOD and Satan and both GOD and Satan are at war with them to get them to change, one side ordering them to be holy and the other side driving them to finally accept being totally evil and to turn against GOD...</sigh>

GOD cannot judge the Satanic and cleanse HIS reality from them until the sinful elect are holy and Satan hates them because they hold the key to his life, to extend it by staying in sin or to end it by choosing holiness.

[William]

[Replying to post 48 by 2timothy316]

People have been faking exorcisms for centuries.

Point being, re the OP blurb, how is one to know the real from the fake? Even the story of demons being cast from one individual into a herd of pigs which then became suicidal, could be fake.

The whole idea of demons/demons possessing human forms could be fake.

[Replying to post 48 by 2timothy316]

Did Jesus cast out demons to help or make money?

"Are demons real and do they exist within human forms?" are the better questions.
It appears that apart from movies and stories, they do not. Thus one has to question whether Jesus cast anything out of any human.

Your answer, such as it is, avoided answering my question, so I will ask you again;

Q: Have you personally witnessed a 'true' exorcism, and if so, by what means did you establish the event was true?[/quote]

[marco]

I would just add, If God communicates with no one, why would we even consider Him?

I don't see that God is a two-way affair, though of course worshippers suppose it to be. Why would primitive people offer sacrifices to their gods if their gods didn't talk to them? Well of course believers will attribute raindrops and roses to their interaction with God. When rainfall comes can God be far behind?


Voltaire said that if God didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent him. And people do invent him, in all shapes and sizes. God may not answer prayers, but he's the answer to prayers: avenger, punisher, comforter, provider ... and even the small voice of calm in a turbulent night. He made both lamb and tiger.

[marco]

The appropriateness of Christ calling His people sheep is found in the fact that sheep are (rightly or wrongly) considered one of the stupidest animals alive...

But they taste nice. Ironically the younger version of that same stupidity, the lamb, is the honorific title given to Christ! In Psalm 34 we are invited to: "taste and see that the Lord is good." Presumably with mint sauce.


So I think Jesus referring to "my stupid ones" is not so nice.

One thing about the sinful elect that proves they are the stupidest people in existence is that they effectively have alienated BOTH GOD and Satan and both GOD and Satan are at war with them to get them to change, one side ordering them to be holy and the other side driving them to finally accept being totally evil and to turn against GOD...</sigh>

My goodness, they really are stupid then, conducting a war on two fronts. For them there's no difference between angel and demon. I wonder what mathematical or logical principle drives them into their way of acting. Cui bono? the lawyer would ask.