"a standard of perfection that we cannot keep"

[Elijah John]

TBN preacher this morning said the reason the Law was given was to give us a "standard of perfection that we cannot keep" and to show us our need for a savior.

His statement is in accord with Pauline, NT theology. But is this really the purpose of the Law? The "original intent" of Moses, the lawgiver? (or God through Moses).

If so, where is the "Old" Testament evidence that the law was given not to be obeyed, but to demonstrate our need for a savior?

Is Paul's theology on this matter a bit of revisionism?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I don't think it's reasonable that God gave laws he did not want obeyed. That said something can serve a double or even a triple purpose... as was the case I believe of the Mosaic Law.



JW

[ttruscott]

If so, where is the "Old" Testament evidence that the law was given not to be obeyed, but to demonstrate our need for a savior?

The OT gave the law for our blessing: Deuteronomy 30:16 For I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, statutes, and ordinances, so that you may live and increase, and the LORD your God may bless you in the land you are entering to possess. Only after the great failures of a whole people to obey the law was it revealed that that failure was the point of its being given...

The NT itself speaks to the usefulness of the law to convict people of their sinfulness:
Romans 7:7 On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; with Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

What good is an awareness of our sin, our guilt before GOD if it does not lead to repentance? Do we think that GOD wants us to wallow in guilt the rest of our existence? Neither do I since the call to repentance is followed by the process of sanctification, making HIS sinful elect holy and heaven ready starting with the acceptance of a saviour.

This pattern is explained in Rom 8:3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.

[Aside: I Tim 1:8 Now we know that the Law is good, if one uses it legitimately. 9 We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful...(etc): yet the law, the first command on earth, was given to Adam and Eve supposedly when they were righteous in their innocence, not lawless and rebellious....funny that, eh?]

[ElCodeMonkey]

Personally, I see a pattern in the Bible. Christianity/Paul is not the first to think we could not or should not follow the law and that the law was to show us our futile abilities. The Israelites did it long before the concept of a Pharisee even existed. This is why they created sacrifice. Instead of being good, cuz, like, that's hard, they started sacrificing animals to "foreign gods." A prophet would then show up and yell at them saying that they're all bad and that God wants them to be good and not this stupid sacrifice junk. Of course, they kill the prophet for not believing in their one true God and then reuse the prophet's words and twist them. The prophet said we are naught but filthy rags! See, we can't possibly be good in God's eyes! Time to light up the BBQ! Of course, they skip the part where it says that they shouldn't be sacrificing at all and the fact that this was a reprimand rather than a "perpetual state of the soul of man" declaration. This happened over and over. Jesus came and preached the exact same thing. He yelled at the Pharisees for being inwardly awful while being "religious" on the outside and clarified that God did not want sacrifice just like all the other prophets. He wants goodness first and foremost. Love. Kindness. Mercy. Guess what? They killed him for it too. Jesus had the foresight to warn that his words would be corrupted just like in the past. He had the foresight to use parables as well so that the meaning could hopefully be retained by a wise person while others corrupt the intent. Lo and behold, over time, the "Christians" reverted right back to Pharisaical thinking that we can't possibly be good and we need sacrifice. And thus, the perfect sacrifice was born: Jesus. Just a few words here, some revisions in manuscripts there, and boom. Now it all fits together nicely: we're just too bad to be good, but if you "think" the right things God will love you. If you "think" the wrong things you will be tormented by God or us, his instruments. Don't think too hard about this, or we kill you and you burn in hell forever. It is quite the pattern of manipulation.

God wants us to follow the commandments and to be good. He never said we have to be perfect at it, just that we actually seek to do it and prioritize it--to desire and hope for goodness to show that we are his people. He desires goodness more than anything else, and all the religious junk that keeps hindering it is the exact message of the devil. The fake seeds sown by the enemy that cause wheat and weed to grow together. That's what Jesus and all the prophets before him have been trying to spell out and were killed for. They stood for what was right, not for what was religious.

[2timothy316]

The purpose of the law was to keep the line of Abraham healthy, alive and clean in the way of correct worship. It was made to keep a promise to Abraham that from his line would come a savior for all mankind. Yet was it's sole purpose to so a "standard of perfection that we cannot keep"? No. If it's main purpose was to show what was the standard for human perfection, then slavery and polygamy certainly wouldn't have been allowed.

While the law did indeed show that mankind can't be placed under God's laws while imperfect, the law's purpose was way better than that. Romans 15:4 says of the Bible and that would include the law, "For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction...". The of the the failings and the successes of either following the law or not are for our education. The law does make us aware of 'our spiritual need'. This is a good thing according to Jesus in Matt 5:3.

However, for the law's sole purpose to show how far from perfection we are, that wouldn't have taken hundreds of years to prove. Yet to show that restoring mankind to perfection by a law of stone tablets alone is not possible, that would take much longer to prove. Remember, the bait dangled in front of Eve by Satan was that mankind can determine by themselves what is right and wrong. The Law Code was God's option for the nation of Israel as opposed to Satan's option to 'go alone'.

This means time was going to be needed to show which option is best and to show if mankind can be raised to perfection by law alone. To which we know the answer to those questions. The answer is no. Israel's failure and abandonment by God as a people for His name clearly shows that Law alone can't remove the enmity between us and Jehovah God. Something more has to be paid than just a law to crush the enmity between God and mankind. The Bible speaks of someone being struck in the heel and that person struck in the heel crushing someone's head. (Gen 3:15)

[showme]

TBN preacher this morning said the reason the Law was given was to give us a "standard of perfection that we cannot keep" and to show us our need for a savior.

His statement is in accord with Pauline, NT theology. But is this really the purpose of the Law? The "original intent" of Moses, the lawgiver? (or God through Moses).

If so, where is the "Old" Testament evidence that the law was given not to be obeyed, but to demonstrate our need for a savior?

Is Paul's theology on this matter a bit of revisionism?

Paul's theology of the gospel of grace/cross, is the same theology of the serpent (Genesis 3:4). Transgress God's commandments, sin, and escape death/Sheol, in a blink of an eye. It is called the covenant with death/Sheol (Isaiah 28:18) in which the believer/sinner escapes death, and they "surely shall not die". The problem with this nonsense, is that their "pact with Sheol shall not stand" (Isaiah 28:18). The "overwhelming scourge"/the "wrath to come", that John the Baptist talked about in Matthew 3:7 will over take them.

[brianbbs67]

I think Paul is completely misinterpetated and misconscrewed by Christianity today. You can harmonized his words with the law given to Moses. Most don't. Paul didn't do away with the law, he explained how "the great mystery of the Torah" was resolved. That mystery was how was God to remarry Isreal after a divorce degree was given by God in the OT. They had argued for years about how would God do this without breaking His law?

[marco]

I think Paul is completely misinterpetated and misconscrewed by Christianity today. You can harmonized his words with the law given to Moses. Most don't. Paul didn't do away with the law, he explained how "the great mystery of the Torah" was resolved. That mystery was how was God to remarry Isreal after a divorce degree was given by God in the OT. They had argued for years about how would God do this without breaking His law?

I think we can construe Paul perfectly well if we apply the terms prude and misogynist. Since his fit on the road to Damascus he got carried away with his own importance. Talk of God "remarrying" this that or the next thing makes God into some clown.

Paul made his own law, replacing Christ's words with his own, cursing those who disagreed. Nice man!

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

TBN preacher this morning said the reason the Law was given was to give us a "standard of perfection that we cannot keep" and to show us our need for a savior.

His statement is in accord with Pauline, NT theology. But is this really the purpose of the Law? The "original intent" of Moses, the lawgiver? (or God through Moses).

If so, where is the "Old" Testament evidence that the law was given not to be obeyed, but to demonstrate our need for a savior?

Is Paul's theology on this matter a bit of revisionism?

This isn't what Paul taught at all. The TBN's theology is what is revisionist, not Paul's. The only real difference in what Paul taught is in what he refers to as "the mystery" which is referring to a secret that had to be kept until it was evident that Israel was never going to accept Christ as their lord and savior. That secret was that the gentile world was going to be joint heirs with Israel. This would have given Israel all the reason necessary to reject the message as there is no way that could be legitimate when the gentile world was indulging in sin. Paul doesn't negate that fact, but instead points out that the church can have no affiliation with "Belial".

Not only does Paul not say such nonsense, he categorically points out just the opposite when one "walks after the Spirit".

Paul points out that under the Old Testament, the law was kept by "will and effort", but that failed to accomplish their intended goal. Under the New Testament, the law is kept by faith, and not the faith of the believer, but the "faith OF Christ" operating in the believer. This is what he sees as a more sure fire way to guarenteed success. So not only is it possible, it's inevitable and guaranteed.

This is nothing new as Jeremiah and Ezekiel both point out the same thing. They point out that it is God who does it. God places a new heart in them for the expressed purpose of keeping God's law. Paul calls them a "new creation" or a "new creature in Christ", and this new creation can't sin. They are expressly created to keep God's law.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]


I don't think it's reasonable that God gave laws he did not want obeyed. That said something can serve a double or even a triple purpose... as was the case I believe of the Mosaic Law.[/quote]

It's even more reasonable to note that God insures that they are kept by creating those who can't sin as is evidenced by the new heart that is given for the express purpose of keeping God's law.