What does it take to prove descent?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

What does it take to prove descent?

Post #1

Post by rikuoamero »

So, the situation is problematic for me. I'm told that there are prophecies, and that among them, we are told that a descendant of the legendary King David will take his throne and drive out Israel's enemies.

I want to focus on the descent part. How does one prove descent? With Jesus, we have two Gospels (Matthew and Luke) rattling off a list of names (different lists by the way) supposedly going back to David and even further. We have Paul mentioning Jesus to be a descendant.
But...IS Jesus a descendant? What constitutes evidence for the claim that he is? Two lists of names?
I want to ask Christian apologists - imagine Jesus's first coming was in the present day. Would you believe someone to be a descendant of the legend that is King David, simply because someone else rattled off a list of names? "A is the son of B, B is the son of C, C is the son of D..."? I'm wondering why you're taking Jesus's biological credentials so...lightly. I mean, it's not like people back then had birth certs, or kept blood tests or DNA records.
How do we know Jesus IS a descendant of David? Can we verify the existence of the people in the supposed lists of ancestry? Did Jews keep absolutely meticulous genealogical records?
I can rattle off a list of names, and say I'm descended from say...the Rockefellers for instance. But does saying "Rikuoamero was the son of Adam, who was the son of Bob, who was the son of Charlie, who was the son of John Rockefellor Sr" mean that I am to be considered an heir to the Rockefeller fortune?
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12235
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: What does it take to prove descent?

Post #2

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

And how could he be a descendant of King David if he had no biological father? He cannot be both the (literal) Son of God, and the descendant of David.

Or are they claiming lineage through Mary?

Also, I agree that there was no way to prove Jesus lineage. No biological tools back then to do so. But those genealogies were the apologist's tools, perhaps fabricated.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Online
User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11333
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: What does it take to prove descent?

Post #3

Post by 1213 »

rikuoamero wrote: So, the situation is problematic for me. I'm told that there are prophecies, and that among them, we are told that a descendant of the legendary King David will take his throne ...
Interesting thing is, the prophesy is:

And has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David

Luke 1:69

Because Jesus was born for parents that belonged to David’s house, he was counted to David’s house. But as the Bible itself shows, Jesus was not son of David:

David himself says in the book of Psalms, 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, Until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet."' "David therefore calls him Lord, so how is he his son?"
Luke 20:42-44

The prophesy doesn’t mean Messiah will be actual son of David.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: What does it take to prove descent?

Post #4

Post by marco »

1213 wrote:
The prophesy doesn’t mean Messiah will be actual son of David.
So if the Messiah can be anyone, with no Davidian blood connection, why the prophecy in the first place?


The genealogy was given because its authors believed the blood connection with David was essential. It is obviously fabricated, so the kindest thing we can say is that the writers were trying to raise Christ in people's eyes, linking him not just with David, but with Adam and God. The problem is: if they can be so lax with their facts here, why should anyone credit them elsewhere?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: What does it take to prove descent?

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

Are the words blood descendent, biological or DNA in scripture? If not would it not be fair to conclude the need to adhere to such stipulation are a matter of personal interpretation of the words which are in scripture rather than explicit scriptural or cultural requirement?
Rather than asking ". How does one prove descent? " a more pertinent question would be . "What would be accepted as proof of prove descent for the a first century Jewish audience faced with a claim of Messiahship?"

JW




RELATED POSTS


Did Jesus actually claim to be the Messiah?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 342#918342

How does the bible often refer to descendant of people? (seed)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 718#832718
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: What does it take to prove descent?

Post #6

Post by marco »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Rather than asking ". How does one prove descent? " a more pertinent question would be . "What would be accepted as proof of prove descent for the a first century Jewish audience faced with a claim of Messiahship?"

Obviously what might satisfy the unsophisticated should not meet modern requirements. Why then would we want to believe as people of an early century believed when we have learned so much across two millennia?

The answer to your interesting question is: Just about anything would be accepted by those who wanted to believe. It seems that little has changed, for some, over the centuries. Sad really.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: What does it take to prove descent?

Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

marco wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Rather than asking ". How does one prove descent? " a more pertinent question would be . "What would be accepted as proof of prove descent for the a first century Jewish audience faced with a claim of Messiahship?"
Obviously what might satisfy the unsophisticated should not meet modern requirements. .

Exactly my point!

The gospels explain that at the time the Jews were in expectation if the Messiah, indeed if the law had been respected, Jesus own claims should have been verified. I doubt they would have asked for a DNA sample or a blood test. Everone knew that the Messiah was to be of the house of David, so the real question is how would they have verified claimed parentage?



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

polonius
Prodigy
Posts: 3904
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:03 pm
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 1 time

Jesus' genealogy

Post #8

Post by polonius »

If Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he is not the descendant of David.

If Mary were his mother (she is a "cousin" of Elizabeth who is a daughter of Aaron, ( not David)), her offspring would also be of Aaron's lineage.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: What does it take to prove descent?

Post #9

Post by marco »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
marco wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Rather than asking ". How does one prove descent? " a more pertinent question would be . "What would be accepted as proof of prove descent for the a first century Jewish audience faced with a claim of Messiahship?"
Obviously what might satisfy the unsophisticated should not meet modern requirements. .

Exactly my point!

Thanks for agreeing. The point is that it would be silly for us to accept stuff that primitive folk accepted, since they didn't know any better. So we can throw out any suggestions about Christ's genealogy. Sometimes we have to throw away bits of Scripture, when they are nonsensical.

Anyway, it is nice we can agree.

User avatar
Yusef
Banned
Banned
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:39 pm
Location: His Earth
Contact:

Lineage of Jesus

Post #10

Post by Yusef »

Yusef wrote:
🔠》》[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=926469#926469] Again The Connection/Keyword for Crossword [/url]《《🔡🔢🅰🅱 wrote:Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.
Qur'an 16:43
And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask [Ahl-Al-Zikr]the people of the message if you do not know.


Hadith of Shi'a/Islam
These AhluzZikr in the Qur'an 16:43 are we 12 Imams


Well,
What these her children means the Twelver have brought about testimony of Jesus[pbuh] what before them anybody hasn't ever brought even among the same Christian scholars!!? :study:
I point some of them in the same forum:
* Jesus lived among Bani-Israel like poorest people:
ref: Re: Kingdom vs Republican

* Jesus wasn't crucified by Pharisees:
ref: Judas Iscariot EVIL or HOLY !!?

* 40 Priests who had Faith about Jesus and will be resurrected by him at the End Time:
ref: Faith Vs Deeds

* The most dangerous illness that Jesus couldn't heal:
ref: Very simple self foolishness test

* 7 the famous and the worst persons of Hell:

Ghabil son of Adam, king Nimrud enemy of Abraham, Pharaoh, Samiri of Moses, Bolos who converted people to worshipping Jesus, [Abubakr and Umar] The first and second� caliphs of muslims, one was been such as Samiri and invited muslims to worship one other whom was such as the golden calf of Samiri whom converted people to Atheism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Sufism, Communism[means these 2 persons made hatred of Islam]
→ NOTICE:
I saw many times the phrase "the first and second" or "liar prophet and lie god" in the New Testament! And it...

Look! I was read whole the OT/NT in the past, but nothing was gotten from them while I read the Ahadith! And since I came toward the OT/NT for Second time, Then was when i could realize what within OT/NT have written!!
Exact the same Crossword that i brought as Example!
Exact such as that that first of all we look at The Row Questions SURFACING!
then the Columns surfacing and quickly..
Then begin the Rows carefully and bit by bit! Because in that time we have filled several tables of the Crossword!
Notice about the lineages
The lineage of Jesus(a.s.); I got that from a Christian website and I doubt its correctness!! Look at the lineage of Muhammad(S.A.), I connected Ka'ab to his children by lines and how much I put distance between them because should show there was 600 year time between Jesus and Muhammad(S.A. Both)!! Otherwise they would be fellow-century together!!
According to a hadith of Shia, the Mary's lineage is: Mary daughter of Imran son of Mathan, Eliezer, Abiyudh, Yuzan, Zeribabil, Salian, Yuhanna, Uoshia, Amon, Mnshkan, Hazqa, Akhaz, Yutham, Auzia, Yuram, Saqit, Esha, Raji'em son of Solomon the king the prophet(a.s.)
Also according to a hadith I read; One the greatest Christian scholars came to the 7th Imam, Moses alKadhim(a.s.) and converted to Islam cause of he got several answeres from the Imam including he was been awared that the mother of Mary was named 'Martha' the Syriac name, and 'Wahibah' the Arabic
Ref: http://smj-en.blogspot.com/2010/02/2.html?m=0 :study:
I assume your beliefs are the better! Well, be soldier of God and convert me. By your own reasonings also tell me my wrong beliefs and why..>> :study:

Post Reply