Do all people have equal fundamental worth and dignity?

[historia]

Do all people have equal fundamental worth and dignity? Why?

[1213]

Christianity has taught that all people are worthless sinners.

Not only this, but Christianity demands that it's not even possible for a person to redeem themselves. ...

So in Christianity it's a sin to even think that you might be worth anything.

Please explain, if person has murdered someone, how could he redeem himself from that? How could he undo that?

And for what people are worth:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Matt. 10:28-31

[RightReason]

[Replying to The Tanager]

You were arguing that how humans act proves what the truth is; that they necessarily match, right?

Sort of. I am suggesting we can know truth via observation of man and his relationship with the world he lives in. We can know truth by recognizing/acknowledging the nature of a thing. We can observe that human beings are different than other animals. We have rational thought. We can know that all human beings have value and dignity because we acknowledge and accept our nature. Like I said, the only times (this is true in all cultures in all times in all places) we do not afford one another value and dignity is if we change what we are talking about, like I pointed out earlier, and are able to somehow show a human being is not really or fully a human being. They have to be able to successfully change the truth that all men know (that human beings have value and dignity) to make it acceptable to mistreat or devalue or eliminate others.

I don't think their position is ruled out by the introspective evidence on "how humans act."

On the contrary, I think that is a valid and reasonable point to make. We can know what is right and good and true by observing how something works/operates. In fact, that is how we come to such conclusions. What is the respiratory system for? Well let’s observe what it does. Let’s study its nature – its purpose – its function. It is a matter of scientific study to know about something by what it does and how it acts. So, I think it fair to say we can know human beings have value and dignity because we all act as if they do. It’s an observable ingrained truth.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 32 by RightReason]

But in the Nazi thought experiment from before, we would not know that the way we are acting is different than the actual truth. That leaves open the possibility that right now we do not know that the way we are acting is different than the actual truth. I do think the burden is on the person who thinks the two don't match up to show that, however.

[Divine Insight]

Please explain, if person has murdered someone, how could he redeem himself from that? How could he undo that?

I agree. There are scenarios that can be argued could never be redeemed. Not just murder, but even maiming someone permanently could never be redeemed. In fact, raping someone could never truly be redeemed.

So yes, I agree that there are some situations where redemption could not be obtained by an individual. However, that's certainly not true of all "sins" in Christianity. Yet Christianity holds that no one is capable of redeeming their sins on their own.

So it's clearly just a man-made religion that tries to lay impossible guilt trips on people in the name of an imaginary fictitious God.

And for what people are worth:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Matt. 10:28-31

And how utterly hypocritical would this be if Jesus was God?

No human can cast anyone into hell. Only Jesus can do that.

And since he's the one who's threatening people with that fate, he most certainly doesn't value them.

So this is a self-contradictory mythology. Possibly based on a person named Jesus who made these absurd and self-contradictory claims.

If Jesus is God he most certainly doesn't value humans. He's the one who is threatening to cast them into hell.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 1:

Do all people have equal fundamental worth and dignity? Why?

I believe so yes.

Well about that...

Why? Because we are alive and the source of that life is I believe divine.

Beliefs do not demonstrate facts.

As you believe, I challenge you to support that belief with something other'n some more of 'em.

Humans were created in God's image, according to the bible and anything that reflects, even to a small degree the qualities and attributes of the Creator has, I believe, value.

You state as fact that which you believe has value.

Where have you shown this Creator has created him anything?

Jesus is reported as saying...

I believe.

Reported as.

We ain't got time for no sermon!

Jesus is reported as saying that not even a sparrow dies without the Father (Jehovah) taking note...

It's also 'reported' that pokin' sticks in the ground can change the color and / or pattern of animal offspring.

You got you any checkered sparrows?

...and concluded (speaking of his disciples) "you are worth more than many sparrows". So in the eyes of God humans have value.

I've yet to meet me the first sparrow, that started it an entire holocaust.

This was I believe...

'And which I'm trying to get y'all to believe, by declaring a god I can't show exists thinks him the stuff it is, I can't show he does'.

...demonstrated to the ultimate degree by God sending what was most valuable/precious to Him, namely His son to die for humanity.

Ever notice how some folks can't them demonstrate their God done demonstrated him something?

I've 'bout had it with y'all, so what I'm a-gonna do, I'm gon' send me down a human version of me, and I swear it unto myself, if'n y'all touch you one hair on his nappy head, I'm gonna quit making it so's stick poking in the ground don't work no more.
- Jehovah, probably.

Oddly enough, that might well be why we ain't seen us no checkered sparrows

Instead of giving up on mankind as "a lost cause" Jehovah God (The Creator) took measures to save them from destruction. This was because he valued humans past, present and future; reason enough in my opinion to accept the notion that all humans fundamentally have have equal worth and value.

"I believe".

Conclusions?

Is there a Philosophy & Apologetics section on this site?

Setting aside the subjective nature of the OP - all things have an equal fundamental worth and dignity. One way to fret on that is to consider their actions. Then, well there's some of us humans, after we've growed us up a bit, well how 'bout that.

As the challenged claimant has subsequently responded to other posts, we're left to ponder why my challenges to his claims are being otherwise ignored.

I seek to expose the claimant as trying to dishonor honorable debate, by hiding behind the cover of such as "I believe", and "It's been reported".


I challenge this claimant to show his Jehovah (God) has an opinion on any matter this OP may respect.

2nd challenge.

This is not the Philosophy section, this is a section of this site that requires rigorous support for claims.

This is not the Preaching section of this site, we don't get to declare as fact that which we found printed.


Why can't this JehovahsWitness show he's actually witnessed him the stuff it is, he declares he's done witnessed good ol' Jehovah to do?



I'll tell ya my thinking on it - When folks get told all their life how special they are for believing in that which can't be shown to be true, and they enter them a fair and just site dedicated to our various notions - their best, their only survivable tactic is to ignore challenges to their claims.


How could they not? They've not been equipped with the power of critical thinking, only the power of indoctrination. They can't separate their belief from fact!


So they make their claims, and they hope not the first one of any one of us notice their inability to confront their challengers, their attempts to ignore any questions, any data that discomforts their belief.


"JehovahsWitness", I have witnessed you!

[RightReason]

[Replying to The Tanager]

But in the Nazi thought experiment from before, we would not know that the way we are acting is different than the actual truth.

But it doesn’t matter if the Nazi’s didn’t realize their worldview was distorted, they ironically at least were still living truth. Even those brainwashed to come to view Jews as rats (as Hitler use to refer to them) or subhuman is to acknowledge that it is wrong for human beings to disregard other human beings unless of course they can see them as subhuman. So in actuality the Nazi’s were not violating this truth.

Even though tremendous evil can occur with groupthink or brain washing or indoctrination, the only way those things are possible is to hold onto external standards of what is right and good and true. The Nazi’s actually believed what they were doing was good because they did value human beings and believed humans have dignity. In fact, in their minds they wanted to save/protect the human race from nonhumans. If anything, one could argue indoctrination/brainwashing doesn’t do away with truth—it actually confirms it.

That leaves open the possibility that right now we do not know that the way we are acting is different than the actual truth.

Hmmm . . . not sure I buy that. Isn’t that a little like resorting to, “How do any of us really even know if any of us are really here?� I’m mean sure we can play the philosophy game, but it starts to become a little silly. There are basic truths we should all be able to admit and acknowledge, less we are all simply reduced to wondering if all of this is really just a dream.

[William]

[Replying to post 36 by RightReason]

But it doesn’t matter if the Nazi’s didn’t realize their worldview was distorted, they ironically at least were still living truth. Even those brainwashed to come to view Jews as rats (as Hitler use to refer to them) or subhuman is to acknowledge that it is wrong for human beings to disregard other human beings unless of course they can see them as subhuman. So in actuality the Nazi’s were not violating this truth.

Even though tremendous evil can occur with groupthink or brain washing or indoctrination, the only way those things are possible is to hold onto external standards of what is right and good and true. The Nazi’s actually believed what they were doing was good because they did value human beings and believed humans have dignity. In fact, in their minds they wanted to save/protect the human race from nonhumans. If anything, one could argue indoctrination/brainwashing doesn’t do away with truth—it actually confirms it.

That is way too simplistic.

One only has to read the Protocols to understand that the Nazi responded to being dehumanized (as non-Jews) by applying the same technique as the Protocols specified, by dehumanizing Jews - giving them a taste of their own medicine...even that the Protocols were like a document intercepted before it could be enacted by the Zionist Jews.

The Protocols were the central cause of the ensuring Holocaust. The argument above isn't agreeing that the Zionists were the authors of the Protocols, but rather an historical narrative of the main reason the horrific event took place.

Within the Protocols, there is ample evidence of an ideal which does indeed treat humans other than with equal worth and dignity and that is the fundamental reason why the Nazi treated the Jew so inhumanly.

Of course they believed that Zionists were the authors, and as such decided to turn the tables and show the Jews that, not only had they been found out, but now they would suffer the same fate that the Protocols had in store for the non-Jews.

One could learn a lot about how NOT to think about ones fellow human beings, by reading that wretched document. I think if it hadn't have existed, the Holocaust may never have happened. I think that is exactly WHY the document is a part of the Holocaust Memorial Museum.

[Bust Nak]

Look at it this way: You prepare lunch for your two kids. One eats it. The other refuses to eat a bite and pushes the plate away from him.

This analogy does not work, as it does not take into account that it's not us doing the eating, it's God. God wants to eat and wanted each of us to bring him lunch. Jesus, knowing our inability to cook decent meals, perpared a pleasing meal on our behalf. Whether we acknowledge or accept Jesus's effort is irrelevant, as long as God eats the meal.

Those of you who do not choose it shouldn't complain about not being part of the kingdom of heaven, given that you all get a chance to do so.

I didn't. So presumably I get to complain?

In what does the atheist base a human being's value? ...what makes us more valuable than a termite, a lobster or an orangutan?

It is my subjective preference that makes human in general more valuable than termites, lobsters or orangutans.

why would we trust our reason?

Because it works. At least mine does.

As for the OP, please define "fundamental worth," without a robust definition, I am tentatively going with yes, all entities have equal fundamental worth (fundamentally worthless) and dignity (none,) which would include people.

[1213]

So yes, I agree that there are some situations where redemption could not be obtained by an individual. However, that's certainly not true of all "sins" in Christianity. Yet Christianity holds that no one is capable of redeeming their sins on their own.

I think this depends on very much of what “redeeming� and “sin� means. If murder can’t be redeemed by the murderer, what can be and how, please show one example?

And for what people are worth:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Matt. 10:28-31

And how utterly hypocritical would this be if Jesus was God?

No human can cast anyone into hell. Only Jesus can do that.

And since he's the one who's threatening people with that fate, he most certainly doesn't value them.

I think he values, because he has shown the way to life. If people ignore it and don’t want to receive it and are not righteous, then it is actually people who don’t value God, or Jesus, or other people. And I don’t see why people who don’t really value others, should get the eternal life that is in the Bible promised for righteous people.

And Jesus himself says there is only one true God that is greater than him. But according to the Bible, God has given Jesus his authority, so perhaps Jesus also could send people to hell. I believe it is God who decides who goes to hell and is so destructed forever.

[JehovahsWitness]

So in Christianity it's a sin to even think that you might be worth anything.

Biblically, I do not believe this is the case (seebelow).

MATTEW 10:31

So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows - Jesus Christ

ACTS 17:28 "For by him [God] we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’

If there are nominal Christians that hold human life is utterly worthless and that it is a sin to think otherwise (and I have yet to see any evidence any such Christian group exists) it is not, in my opinion, a view reflected in scripture.


JW