Telling Fact from Fiction: A Test

[Jagella]

As many of you may be aware, real-Jesus apologists base their entire case for a historical Jesus on written stories. Scholars like Bart Ehrman, who says that a historical Jesus "almost certainly existed," is "almost certain" Jesus existed because he says he and his fellow Bible scholars can "tease out" fact from fiction in these stories using rigorous historical methods. Needless to say, many of the real-Jesus apologists in this forum agree that the stories of Jesus are, as one member here has said, "overwhelming" evidence that Jesus existed. Of course, not all of us are overwhelmed by these stories as evidence for a historical Jesus, and we appear to be at an impasse neither side proving their case.

So I have an idea: to see if people really can tell fact from fiction by reading and studying stories, I've decided to post four stories here. Please read and study these stories, and then tell me which are true stories with real people and which are fictional stories with made-up people:

• 1. Rick left Edinboro, Pennsylvania to return to his hometown of Pittsburgh. He earned a degree at a college in the Pittsburgh area and found work there.
  
  2. Clyde got bored on his family's horse farm in Kentucky and moved to Nashville to play guitar in a country-western band.
  
  3. Sandy met and married Josh, and the two of them started a successful tattoo parlor in Los Angeles.
  
  4. Joe became very ill when he came down with a case of pneumonia. He spent two months in a nursing home and was hospitalized twice.

Remember that the case for a historical Jesus stands or falls on the stories of Jesus being stories of a real person.

Question for Debate: Can you read and study these stories and use logic to tell if the persons in these stories are real or fictional?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 35 by 2ndRateMind]

And, should the story pass these basic logic tests, then, yes, where two opposing stories are incompatible, I would tend to choose the one most profound, elegant or beautiful.

You would use emotional states of mind to try to parse which of two conflicting stories are true...?
Actually, why am I even expressing surprise? This is something that I've long observed from the theistic crowd. The amount of times I've heard statements from them where they would run amok committing crimes if not for a god, etc.

[rikuoamero]

Just to make things even more fun...a thought occurred to me. Do we know for a fact that Jagella is the one who wrote the stories in the OP? It could be that he asked other people for stories, and he himself doesn't know. Or that the people who may have given him those stories don't know for sure themselves.
This is the exact same situation I face whenever I examine the NT. The exact same conundrums.

If I tell you that I wrote those stories, then will you take the word of an anonymous person whom you know little about?

If I had a gun put to my head, an answer demanded from me, I would not be able to tell which if any of your stories are true.
As it is, there is no gun put to my head, and nothing inherently implausible about any of your four stories. So I would do as I would do in everyday life: namely, give a tacit quote unquote belief, (that is to say, I would not say I disbelieve, or that I consider your stories false), and then continue on with my life.
"Joe drove his car to work today"
"Oh okay then" goes back to playing video games.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 35 by 2ndRateMind]

And, should the story pass these basic logic tests, then, yes, where two opposing stories are incompatible, I would tend to choose the one most profound, elegant or beautiful.

You would use emotional states of mind to try to parse which of two conflicting stories are true...?
Actually, why am I even expressing surprise? This is something that I've long observed from the theistic crowd. The amount of times I've heard statements from them where they would run amok committing crimes if not for a god, etc.

Apparently we KNOW (some version or other of) "God" is there, but we DENY (that version of) "God" so we CAN indulge ourselves in a life of sin ...

You know, like the murder and robbery and rape and pillaging Christians would be doing if they weren't at Bible class or wondering if Jesus is counting just how much they put in the collection bag every week ...

Creation.com claims that all people, first of all, experience a time in their life when they know that they need God. Second, these scoundrels, the atheists, then, needing God, consciously choose to turn their backs on God in order to choose a sinful lifestyle...probably a sexual lifestyle, as is the insinuation of the website. http://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/kar ... u-want-sin

[Jagella]

If I had a gun put to my head, an answer demanded from me, I would not be able to tell which if any of your stories are true.

Since a gun won't work, I can tell you that stories 1 and 4 are true, and stories 3 and 4 are "gospels."

[rikuoamero]

If I had a gun put to my head, an answer demanded from me, I would not be able to tell which if any of your stories are true.

Since a gun won't work, I can tell you that stories 1 and 4 are true, and stories 3 and 4 are "gospels."

Ahh...but why should I believe you? The author of Luke said something about his story being true, but just because he says that doesn't mean I should automatically believe him.

[Jagella]

Since a gun won't work, I can tell you that stories 1 and 4 are true, and stories 3 and 4 are "gospels."

Ahh...but why should I believe you? The author of Luke said something about his story being true, but just because he says that doesn't mean I should automatically believe him.

Well, Rik, you just don't know if I'm telling the truth about which stories are true. As you say, the Bible writers tell us that what they say is true, but we don't know if that's the truth.

So we won this debate, but faith "keeps them strong."

[Tired of the Nonsense]

I agree with William... It could be true... If we had no reason to question such things, someone told me about their friend using the same statement you did, id have no reason to question the statement. However, this is like a test of if we can tell which is true and which is fiction... We have good reason to question everything you are saying, and anyone of them could be true or fiction... Couldnt know for sure

4. Joe became very ill when he came down with a case of pneumonia. He spent two months in a nursing home and was hospitalized twice.

If in the case of Joe above, the story continued on to relate how Joe died from his pneumonia, but three days later he returned to life, visited with friends and family for several days... and then flew away, would THAT serve to raise the red flag of suspicion in your mind?

[William]

I agree with William... It could be true... If we had no reason to question such things, someone told me about their friend using the same statement you did, id have no reason to question the statement. However, this is like a test of if we can tell which is true and which is fiction... We have good reason to question everything you are saying, and anyone of them could be true or fiction... Couldnt know for sure

4. Joe became very ill when he came down with a case of pneumonia. He spent two months in a nursing home and was hospitalized twice.

If in the case of Joe above, the story continued on to relate how Joe died from his pneumonia, but three days later he returned to life, visited with friends and family for several days... and then flew away, would THAT serve to raise the red flag of suspicion in your mind?

I think this then becomes a case of faith-based belief. These in turn develop into nonnegotiable faith-based beliefs and - identified as such - are not subject to debate.

In the case of Joe's story, there is less - in comparison - in which one is enticed to believe it on faith.

The story examples in the OP can be believed as possibly and even probably true. The question as to whether they are true - or for that matter, not true - cannot be answered. There is no requirement though, to believe those stories on faith.

[Jagella]

If in the case of Joe above, the story continued on to relate how Joe died from his pneumonia, but three days later he returned to life, visited with friends and family for several days... and then flew away, would THAT serve to raise the red flag of suspicion in your mind?

With the details you tacked on to story 4, almost nobody would accept the story as true. But it's entirely possible that a tiny group of believers would grow into an enormous religion. If so, those believers might end up defending their belief in Joe's resurrection claiming that they have a historical method that demonstrates that he lived, died, and rose again.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 48 by William]

The question as to whether they are true - or for that matter, not true - cannot be answered. There is no requirement though, to believe those stories on faith.

How do you know there is no requirement to believe these stories on faith? What if there is some sort of powerful being who (like the Christians assert their God did with the Bible authors) manipulated Jagella in some way to write these stories and those of us who don't believe them will have a very bad day after we die?
The only difference between this scenario and the Christian claim is that no-one has actually made it. But beyond that...? For all you know, you could die tomorrow and God will wag his finger at you, telling you you were a naughty sinner for not believing what the great Prophet Jagella told you.
If anyone replies back saying that Jagella can't be a prophet, he hasn't said...well...God works in mysterious ways!