Loss of Faith--What's there to lose?

[Jagella]

Question for Debate: What would Christians lose if they lost their faith?

Needless to say, people do what they do for some kind of advantage they think it offers. If that effort is not applied, then a real or imagined advantage is feared to be lost. Christian faith is like that: believers see some advantage in maintaining Christian faith, and that's why they maintain their faith believing and acting in accord with their faith.

So what is there to lose by losing Christian faith? There are no doubt many answers to this question, but salvation might top the list. Christians see their salvation as an ultimate hope that offers them eternal life in paradise and assurance that they will never be damned. To lose faith is to lose salvation and to risk eternity in hell.

Other reasons to maintain Christian faith is to keep a familiar view of the world, to have a basis for morality, to have friends who believe as the Christian does, and to have a sense of purpose.

I can assure everybody, however, that loss of Christian faith is to lose what you don't really want. My losing my Christian faith is perhaps the best thing that ever happened to me. I felt a great sense of freedom in both thought and in deed when I lost my faith, and I still do. I now have hope that I can live this one true and real life the best way I can. I now have a view of the world that sensible and honest people have discovered through hard work and solid evidence. It truly is a tremendous gain to lose Christian faith!

[1213]

Question for Debate: What would Christians lose if they lost their faith?

Interesting question, what it even means to lose faith. For me, faith means faithfulness, loyalty to God. If I am loyal to God, I keep His commandments that are basically in “love your neighbor as yourself�. If I would lose faith and stop loving others, probably it would be others who would lose, I would gain more time for myself. On the other hand, I think, when I love as Bible teaches, it gives many good things also to me. So, perhaps I would lose them also.

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. That means, to lose eternal life, one should lose righteousness, which is actually not same thing as faith. Faithfulness is something that righteous person has.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

By what I have understood, salvation means that person is rescued from the judgment that becomes because of unrighteousness/sin. Salvation is basically the forgiveness. Now, it can be said that all people have the forgiveness offered freely. It can’t be lost. However, if after forgiveness person goes back to sin, the forgiveness is not useful anymore, because there is new sin. Even if the old is forgiven, the new sin brings new judgment.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 2 by 1213]

1213, would I be correct if I summed up your reply as
"If one stops being Christian (no longer believes in or worships the Christian God), then they will stop loving others, and are likely to commit adultery, to murder, to steal, to give false testimony"

[Jagella]

Interesting question...

And thank you for the answers.

For me, faith means faithfulness, loyalty to God. If I am loyal to God, I keep His commandments that are basically in “love your neighbor as yourself�.

Yes. Faith means different things to different people, of course. For the purposes of this discussion, I understand faith broadly as anything that keeps a Christian a Christian. And I see you think of faith as loyalty. If you forsook your Christian beliefs, then you would feel disloyal. By remaining Christian you remain loyal.

...I think, when I love as Bible teaches, it gives many good things also to me.

What rewards do you receive when you love according to the Bible?

Bible tells eternal life is for righteous.

You fear the loss of eternal life if you lost your faith. I must admit that might be a very big loss!

Faithfulness is something that righteous person has.

So if you lost your faith, then you would no longer consider yourself to be rightgeous.

These will go away into eternal punishment...

You are like many Christians fearing eternal punishment for losing faith.

Salvation is basically the forgiveness.

OK, you feel a need to be forgiven for what you may have done.

I can respond that I can do most of what you've listed in your post and do it without being a Christian. I can remain loyal to anybody who deserves it, I feel rewarded for my good deeds, and I live a righteous life. If I hurt anybody, I can always seek forgiveness from them.

Now the business about eternal life and punishment is another matter. Losing Christian faith cannot promise bliss forever in some realm, and it can't guarantee safety from punishment. But promises are only as good as they are genuine, and threats can be empty. After many years of study and reflection, I've concluded that the Christian heaven and hell only exist in stories. Death is the end, and it's vital to live your heaven here and now in this one life you truly live.

[Deleted]

"Replying to post 1 by Jagella"

My losing my Christian faith is perhaps the best thing that ever happened to me. I felt a great sense of freedom in both thought and in deed when I lost my faith, and I still do. I now have hope that I can live this one true and real life the best way I can. I now have a view of the world that sensible and honest people have discovered through hard work and solid evidence. It truly is a tremendous gain to lose Christian faith!

For this sense of freedom to be real in truth you would have to have the equivalent of fact that sin either doesn't exist or there's no need for a Savior from the liability involved.

And I contend that you could never be that sure, else you could offer proof that this is true, for which the world would commend you in perpetua. And no one has pulled that off yet.

So what your admission amounts to is another case of belief. You have come to believe that either God doesn't exist, or that Christ did not need to die for your sins, etc.

And it seems to me that in order to glory in the freedom from liability this entails, one would have to be exceedingly sure. I mean, this isn't something you would want to merely guess about. It's not something you would ever want to be found mistaken about. And that kind of assurance is only had by proof.

So what path of logic or argument did you follow to arrive at such a fact?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 5 by mrhagerty]

For this sense of freedom to be real in truth you would have to have the equivalent of fact that sin either doesn't exist or there's no need for a Savior from the liability involved.

And I contend that you could never be that sure, else you could offer proof that this is true, for which the world would commend you in perpetua. And no one has pulled that off yet.

Consider this philosophical approach. Please pretend that you believe Jagella and I when we say we are fine, upstanding citizens even without having any theistic beliefs. I'm not sure about particular details about Jagella, but I do not drink, do not smoke, do not steal, do not murder, do not give false testimony etc etc.
Now, would you consider it a loving, compassionate, good act for a God to punish Jagella and I after our deaths, to put us in hell, to either have us suffer for eternity or be outright destroyed, simply because despite all our good behaviours, we don't believe the Bible tales?
If you say no, then you agree with Jagella and I. This explains where our sense of freedom comes from.
We're no longer afraid that the God whom we once called loving, whom we once said to other people is a loving, caring, compassionate God...would visit upon us the worst of punishments simply because we don't believe a certain holy book. I at the very least was once terrified of that happening, up until the day I realised that for my fear to make any sense, it means that God would have to be vindictive and petty.

If it turns out there IS a God...well then, why should I fear this being if it actually IS all about love and compassion?
If it instead turns out there is a god and he IS vindictive and petty...why should I then bow to him? I'm to put it mildly screwed, so I might as well stay loyal to my sense of what is right and what is wrong (namely, that Might Makes Right is NOT how I want to live my life). I'll end up in hell, but at least it won't be because I compromised on my morals and bowed to a monster.
It might actually strike you as strange, that I don't fear death. And yet, this is what I hear from the Christian camp, even from those among them who assert that not believing in God means one ends up in hell.

[Jagella]

1213, would I be correct if I summed up your reply as "If one stops being Christian (no longer believes in or worships the Christian God), then they will stop loving others, and are likely to commit adultery, to murder, to steal, to give false testimony"

Many Christians do fear that with the loss of their faith they would also lose their morals. I think it's important to let them know that their morality might actually improve if they leave the Christian religion. If they leave the fold, then they are free to live the most moral life they can think of--something they cannot do under the strictures of Christianity.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 7 by Jagella]

I think it's important to let them know that their morality might actually improve if they leave the Christian religion. If they leave the fold, then they are free to live the most moral life they can think of--something they cannot do under the strictures of Christianity.

This actually happened to me. During my childhood, during the years when I was a Christian, I shoplifted books. I had at the time the belief that I am a horrible evil wicked sinner. After all, that's what Christianity teaches. So...I might as well sin. I might as well steal things. I can't have Christianity being wrong, now can I?
Now? I don't steal. I pay for things.

[StuartJ]

I was going to draw a distinction between what they BELIEVE they lose ...

And what they REALLY lose.

Until I thought ...

If faith has finally fluttered out of the stained-glass window, then what they have believed they were going to lose wouldn't apply anymore ...

And all they have lost is delusion and superstition ...

And that's not really a loss ...

And you get your Sundays and your money back to do constructive things with,

So ...

In the complete absence of any sort of evidence whatsoever for anyone's version of "God" ...

Christians have NOTHING to lose.

[Realworldjack]

Question for Debate: What would Christians lose if they lost their faith?

Needless to say, people do what they do for some kind of advantage they think it offers. If that effort is not applied, then a real or imagined advantage is feared to be lost. Christian faith is like that: believers see some advantage in maintaining Christian faith, and that's why they maintain their faith believing and acting in accord with their faith.

So what is there to lose by losing Christian faith? There are no doubt many answers to this question, but salvation might top the list. Christians see their salvation as an ultimate hope that offers them eternal life in paradise and assurance that they will never be damned. To lose faith is to lose salvation and to risk eternity in hell.

Other reasons to maintain Christian faith is to keep a familiar view of the world, to have a basis for morality, to have friends who believe as the Christian does, and to have a sense of purpose.

I can assure everybody, however, that loss of Christian faith is to lose what you don't really want. My losing my Christian faith is perhaps the best thing that ever happened to me. I felt a great sense of freedom in both thought and in deed when I lost my faith, and I still do. I now have hope that I can live this one true and real life the best way I can. I now have a view of the world that sensible and honest people have discovered through hard work and solid evidence. It truly is a tremendous gain to lose Christian faith!

Needless to say, people do what they do for some kind of advantage they think it offers. If that effort is not applied, then a real or imagined advantage is feared to be lost. Christian faith is like that: believers see some advantage in maintaining Christian faith, and that's why they maintain their faith believing and acting in accord with their faith.

This would depend on what you are talking about? But let's get to the chase. What you are talking about is, the reason some folks may choose to believe Christianity?

I think it would be a fact that there are folk who do not really think about what they believe, or why they believe it, and their motivation would be the advantage they see in the belief, whether the belief may be true or not.

We know this to be a fact, because we have numerous members here on this site, who readily, and freely admit that they once were dearly, devoted, and devout Christians for years of their life, and they now have rejected the faith, and they claim to have had these same motivations themselves.

In other words, these folks tell us they were once totally convinced Christians, but now are convinced there is no reason to believe the things they once believed with all their heart, soul, and mind.

I really do not think that it would need to be pointed out that it would not be very wise to grab ahold to a belief that there would be no good reason to believe in the first place, especially when it would involve such a major life decision.

However, I would like to point out that, those who did make such major life decisions, without truly investigating the evidence, and were simply believing for whatever advantage they perceived, may be under the impression that those that still believe what they have now rejected, must, and have to be doing so, for the same reasons they once held to the belief, because they cannot imagine that there would be evidence to support the belief, because never investigated anything at all before they made such a decision, so they imagine that everyone else must think, and make decisions just as they did.

In other words, they could not imagine for a moment when they were Christians, that they could have possibly been wrong, and it had to be all the evil Atheists, and unbelievers who were wrong, but now that they have rejected Christianity, they now cannot possibly be wrong, and it is Christians, and the evil belief system that has to be false.

It is amazing how there are some folks who could never possibly be wrong, no matter what they believe, nor how many times they are blown to and fro?

Moreover, these folks cannot seem to imagine that there may be some folks who do not think as they do, and do actually investigate certain evidence before they make such major life decisions.

Because you see, I am a Christian, but I certainly do not want to be. Who would want to believe these things? See what I mean? I would venture to guess, that those who made a decision to be a Christian who have now rejected, and claimed that there are no good reasons to believe, cannot imagine a Christian saying such a thing.

Why would this be? Well because they made the decision to become a Christian because of all the advantages they believed were there, and they cannot imagine that there would be Christians who came to faith for other reasons, and they certainly cannot imagine anyone believing something they would rather not believe. In other words, their mindset seems to be, "you only believe those things that you want to believe because there are certain advantages, and you reject things you would rather not believe, that may make you feel bad."

However, I will assure you I am a Christian for no other reason than, I have investigated the evidence, and have become convinced by the evidence, and I will go on to assure that I would much, much, rather not be a Christian, because I happen to know what all it entails, and it is not things one would want to believe. If there are those who want to be a Christian, then they surely do not understand what it does indeed entail.

The thing is though, how many of these folk who claim to be so convinced of Christianity for years, that they gave themselves completely over to it, including their money, but have now rejected it, because they now say there would be no reason to believe what they once embraced so dearly, I wonder how much their thinking has really changed?

Let us see.

My losing my Christian faith is perhaps the best thing that ever happened to me.

Does this sound familiar to anyone at all? Notice, there is really no reason or evidence to back up what they now believe. Rather, it must be true because, "it is the best thing that ever happen to me."

This sounds exactly like a lot of Christians who are attempting to persuade someone Christianity is true. In other words, there are no facts, and evidence used. Rather, "I know it is true because it is the best thing that ever happened to me."

So then, more than likely what we have here is, one who came to faith because, "it was the best thing that ever happen to them." But now they have rejected the faith, and now this, "is the best thing that ever happened to me." What was it that was said about believing certain things only for the advantages?

I felt a great sense of freedom in both thought and in deed when I lost my faith, and I still do.

Now here is a real good one. Notice again, facts, and evidence do not enter the equation. Rather, it is how I "FEEL" that matters. This sounds as if it comes straight out of those evil Christians hand book.

I can hear it now........... "I once was a sinner and I thought all was right, but deep down inside I always knew something was wrong, and then I gave my life to Christ, and you cannot believe the feeling that came over me, along with the sense of real freedom."

Oh but now, I have rejected the faith that I once held so dearly that gave me such good feelings, and now the feeling I have is just as good, if not better than the feeling I had when I embraced the faith, which surely must mean the first feeling was wrong but I am surely right about this one. GOOD GRIEF!

It continues on, believe it or not,

I now have hope that I can live this one true and real life the best way I can.

Do I have to say anything here? No facts! No evidence! Just hope?

And it continues,

I now have a view of the world that sensible and honest people have discovered through hard work and solid evidence. It truly is a tremendous gain to lose Christian faith!

So, it was, "a tremendous gain?" Who was it again, who said something about those who believe certain things, simply for the advantages they see in the belief?

It seems what we have here, is one who is criticizing the thinking of others, however their own thinking seems to be no different than the ones being criticized?

I just have a question here at the end. Is there any real difference in the thinking here? In other words, what is the difference in the thinking that would have caused one to embrace Christianity so dearly, as opposed to the thinking that has caused them to reject?

As we all ponders this question, let us take a look at that paragraph in its entirety, to determine how much difference there really may be, between the thinking being criticized, and the thinking involved in the paragraph.

I can assure everybody, however, that loss of Christian faith is to lose what you don't really want. My losing my Christian faith is perhaps the best thing that ever happened to me. I felt a great sense of freedom in both thought and in deed when I lost my faith, and I still do. I now have hope that I can live this one true and real life the best way I can. I now have a view of the world that sensible and honest people have discovered through hard work and solid evidence. It truly is a tremendous gain to lose Christian faith!