The Trinity.

[Elijah John]

Is the Trinity Divine Revelation? Or is the Trinity a theological construct? Designed by humans to help us to understand God and how to relate to Him?

If the Trinity is Divine Revelation, where and how was that doctrine revealed?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The trinity is best found by reading the Bible without judgement and what the words mean in context.

So you read about the Father and his attributes which are the same as Gods. Or you read about the Son and his attributes which are the same as Gods. Or you read about the Spirit and his attributes which are the same as Gods.

I really don't have a preconceived view in approaching the Bible or any book. I read Harry Potter and someone casts a spell and I presume they are a wizard. Its only when our preconceived ideas are challenged that we work to reinterpret the text. Imo

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Is the Trinity Divine Revelation? Or is the Trinity a theological construct?

The Trinity is revealed in Sacred Scripture, however, remember Divine Revelation is not only via Sacred Scripture. God also reveals things to us via His Church (Sacred Tradition). No where in Scripture does Scripture say Scripture alone is our authority. In fact, who gave us the Bible? Christ’s Church! We were told to listen to His Church, who will help guide us in interpreting Scripture. Why do so many have a problem with this? It was God’s design to do it this way, so what then would actually be a problem with something being a theological construct by Christ’s Church? That’s her job!

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The trinity is best found by reading the Bible without judgement and what the words mean in context.

I tried that. And ended with a completely different conclusion. I found that even the New Testament teaches the Father alone is God.

And that in order to come to the conclusion that Jesus is God or that God is a Trinity, one needs to focus almost entirely on John and Paul. But even they do not go that far. At "best" (depending on one's point of view) they were proto-Trinitarians.

I was raised a Trinitarian Catholic. But when I started reading the Bible more objectively, I discovered that Jesus is not God, nor could he be. (Matthew 16.28, John 17.3, I Timothy 2.5 etc, etc.)

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 2 by Wootah]

It's not so much reading a Bible and trusting whoever translated it. Instead it is a matter of reading the NT Greek texts objectively.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Ok let's work on your issues.

Matthew 16:28. What's the problem there?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Is the Trinity Divine Revelation? Or is the Trinity a theological construct?

The Trinity is revealed in Sacred Scripture, however, remember Divine Revelation is not only via Sacred Scripture. God also reveals things to us via His Church (Sacred Tradition). No where in Scripture does Scripture say Scripture alone is our authority. In fact, who gave us the Bible? Christ’s Church! We were told to listen to His Church, who will help guide us in interpreting Scripture. Why do so many have a problem with this? It was God’s design to do it this way, so what then would actually be a problem with something being a theological construct by Christ’s Church? That’s her job!

Aparently the authors of the New Testament were not Roman Catholics, if that's who you mean by "Christ's Church". Seems they didn't get the memo from the Church or they would have mentioned the Trinity as expliclty as in the Nicene or Athanasian Creed.

Also, where is the Trinity revealed in Sacred Scripture?

[RightReason]

[Replying to Elijah John]

I tried that. And ended with a completely different conclusion. I found that even the New Testament teaches the Father alone is God.

Except when it doesn’t . . .


In Luke 12:8-9, angels are called "angels of God"; in Matthew 13:41, angels are called "[Jesus’] angels." Jesus and God are synonymous. Jesus does what only God can do. He forgives sins by his own authority (see Is. 43:25; Mark 2:5-9). He judges the world in Matthew 25:31-46. This is God’s prerogative according to Genesis 18:25 and Joel 3:12.


Jesus refers to himself with the divine name—I am —in several places. This "I am" formula is a reference back to the Divine Name revealed to Moses in Ex. 3:14. Not only does Jesus refer to himself as "I am" four times in John’s Gospel (see John 8:24; 58; 13:19 and 18:5-6), but when he does so in John 8:58, the Jews to whom he was speaking understood his meaning because they immediately wanted to stone him for blasphemy!


Jesus places his word on the same level as the word of God—the Old Testament. "You have heard it said . . . but I say to you . . ." (see Matt. 5:21-28). This is in sharp contrast to the prophets of old who always made clear the word they were speaking was not their own: "The word of the Lord came unto me, saying . . . " (cf. Jer. 1:11; Ezek. 1:3, etc.). Only God possesses this kind of authority.


Jesus is referred to as "equal" with God by both John and Paul. In John 5:18, the author comments on why the Jews wanted to kill Jesus: "Because he called God his Father, making himself equal with God." Paul refers to Jesus when he was "in the form (Gk. morphe; in Greek usage this word means the set of characteristics that makes a thing what it is) of God" thinking "his equality with God" not something to be g.asped onto, but emptying himself and becoming man (cf. Phil. 2:6-10). Paul assumes his readers already knew Jesus to be equal with God, the Father.


Jesus is referred to in the New Testament with the title Lord as it is uniquely applied to Yahweh in the Old Testament. Jesus calls himself "the Lord of the Sabbath" in Mark 2:28. The Sabbath is referred to as the "Sabbath of Yahweh" in the Old Testament (cf. Ex. 20:10; see also Is. 8:13, referred to in 1 Peter 3:15; and Joel 2:31-32, quoted both in Acts 2:20-21 and in Rom. 10:13).

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... sus-is-god


In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).


In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")


In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be g.asped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."


Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).


This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).


. . . the early Church Fathers also recognized that Jesus Christ is God and were adamant in maintaining this precious truth. See link for early church father writings demonstrating Jesus is God.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-divinity-of-christ

I was raised a Trinitarian Catholic. But when I started reading the Bible more objectively, I discovered that Jesus is not God, nor could he be.

You read the Bible more objectively than Christ’s Church?

(Matthew 16.28, John 17.3, I Timothy 2.5 etc, etc.)

I’m with on this. How does Matthew 16.28 cause you to believe Jesus was not God? What am I missing?

As for John 17.3 . . .


First of all, it is not proper to make a theological doctrine out of one verse. Of this, the Jehovah's Witnesses are sometimes guilty. Nevertheless, they do tend to take one or two verses on a subject and use them to interpret all the others. Instead of getting a balanced position, they arrive at an interpretation that is in agreement with their theological position. This is called "proof-texting" and is something the Jehovah's Witnesses frequently do.

Second, the context of Jesus' comment was that He was speaking as a man to His God. Remember, Jesus is both God and man, the second person of the Trinity, and the word made flesh (John 1:1, 14). Since He was both divine and man, as a man, He would naturally and properly say that His Father was the only True God. He was not denying His own divinity but affirming the Trueness of God as was done in the OT: "Now, O LORD our God, deliver us from his hand that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that You alone, LORD, are God," (Isaiah 37:20). The truth is that Jesus was a man made under the Law (Gal. 4:4); and as a man, He would be subject to God. Only, in this case, Jesus was subject to the Father. That is why Jesus called the Father the only true God; but it is not a phrase that excludes Christ, for Christ Himself said, "Before Abraham was, I am," (John 8:58) and did not deny being called God by Thomas in John 20:28.

Third, John 17:3 must be examined in the light of the totality of scripture. We see that Jesus is called God in John 1:1, 14; 8:58; 20:28; Col. 2:9; and Heb. 1:8. Therefore, John 17:3 cannot be interpreted in a way that disagrees with other scriptures. Of course, some people simply state that John 17:3 cannot allow for Jesus being God, but the simple fact is that Jesus is called God by God and others. Therefore, the whole of scripture must be harmonized.

Fourth, this verse reflects the sonship of Jesus. The Father and the Son have a unique relationship. Jesus is the eternal Son. The terms Father and Son denote a relationship which is why God is called the God of the Son in 2 Cor. 11:31.

Fifth, Jesus identifies Himself with the Father. Jesus is in the Father, and the Father is in Jesus (John 10:38). Jesus is one with the Father (John 10:30). They are not divided in essence. So, in one sense Jesus is in the Father; and if the Father is the only true God, then Jesus is the True God. Also, in 1 John 5:20, Jesus is called the only true God: "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." Jesus is not contradicting the word.

Sixth, if we are to be consistent using the Jehovah's Witness logic that the Father is the only true God, then the following verses present a problem - if we use their logic.

"For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ," (Jude 4).

Does this mean that the Father is not our Master and Lord? Of course not. Yet, Jesus is called our only Master and Lord.

"There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him," (John 1:9-10).

Here we see Jesus being called the true light. Does this mean that the Father is not the true light? If not, then we have both the Son and the Father being the true light.

"And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone,"(Mark 10:18).

Does this verse mean that Jesus is not good? Jesus said only God was good. Then, if we use the Jehovah's Witness logic, Jesus is not good. Of course, that doesn't make any sense.

I, even I, am the Lord [YHWH}; And there is no savior besides Me," (Isaiah 43:11).

We know that Jesus is the Savior. Again, according to Witness logic, Jesus could not be the Savior since the Bible tells us that YHWH is the only Savior.

"Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, Who alone works wonders," (Psalm 72:18).

Jesus performed many miracles. But if the Lord [YHWH] is the one who alone performs wonders, how then can it be that Jesus also?

"Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the Lord [YHWH], am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone,'" (Isaiah 44:24).

According to John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17 Jesus made all things. With JW logic you would have a problem.

Col. 1:16-17 says, "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Since God alone created all things, how could Jesus have done it? For more on this subject see the JW paper on Col. 1:16-17.

As we can see, we cannot simply make a doctrine out of one verse. To do so is to invite error and it only serves to use the Bible to validate preconceived ideas about doctrine.

https://carm.org/john-173-only-true-god


Does the wording of 1 Timothy 2:5—“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus�—mean that Jesus is not God?




To answer this question, it should first of all be pointed out that later in the same letter the apostle Paul recites the “mystery of godliness� in these terms: “God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory� (1 Timothy 3:16). So Paul directly proclaims Jesus as God. And of course he also referred to God the Father as God (1 Timothy 1:1-2). Thus, as Paul acknowledged, Jesus was one of the two who were God, in line with the truth proclaimed in John 1, which refers to God (the Father) and the Word who was also God, who became Jesus Christ (John 1:1-3; John 1:14).
Some render the opening phrase of the verse differently. The original Greek word order is “one, for God,� with no “is� (that having to be inserted in translation). Some render the phrase as “For God is one� (Complete Jewish Bible, Green’s Literal Translation). It can also be translated “For one [is] God� (Young’s Literal Translation, brackets in original). The focus here could be that on one side or one hand is God and that One, Christ, is Mediator between God and the other side, human beings. The Living Bible paraphrases the point of the verse this way: “That God is on one side and all the people on the other side, and Christ Jesus, himself man, is between them to bring them together.�

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/b ... is-one-god

Aparently the authors of the New Testament were not Roman Catholics

Sure about that? Peter was our first Pope. He was established the leader of Church before the Bible came along.

, if that's who you mean by "Christ's Church"

Yes, I am referring to the historical record.

.

Seems they didn't get the memo from the Church or they would have mentioned the Trinity as expliclty as in the Nicene or Athanasian Creed.

What are you talking about. This is from the Nicene Creed . . .

God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. . .
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, . . .
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

Also, where is the Trinity revealed in Sacred Scripture?

Forgive my frustration but hasn’t there already been multiple threads pointing out just that? Please see all of my above post.

But also very important – I must mention as I did earlier – the Trinity would not have to have been revealed in Scripture. It is. However, even if it wasn’t –it is something that could have been revealed via Christ’s Church. God can do that, you know? And His Church can do that. He said as much. He gave His Church authority! Why do so many ignore this?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 8 by RightReason]

Whole lot of theologizing and aplogetics goin' on there. Not much revelation as far as I can see. If Jesus thought he was God, why didn't he just come out and explicitly, plainly and simply say "I am God"? Why did he leave it for various Church councils to settle the matter and make that determination, hundreds of years later?

Or why didn't any of the apostles say "Jesus is God" . Not even Paul. What were they afraid of if they believed it to be true, why didn't they just say so?

Or the Gospel Evangelists, none of them came right out and said explicitly "Jesus is God".

Either they were afraid to do so, or they didn't quite believe it or want to go that far, or what ever reason. They seem to have wanted plausible deniability if anyone acccused them of Jesus-worship, or claiming that Jesus was God. why do you suppose is the reason for all this indirection and circumlocution?

Contrast all this to what the OT/Hebrew Bible says about Yahweh. In repeated verses, the Old Testament writers make the claim that "the LORD (YHVH) is God" or "blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD (YHVH)". "My help comes from the LORD (YHVH) who made Heaven and earth". Explicit, no beating around the bush.

But if I grant for the sake of argument that the NT makes the case for Jesus Divinity, that is still only two Persons, not the three required for a Trinity.

Jesus Divinity alone is not enough to make the Trinity.

[RightReason]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Whole lot of theologizing and aplogetics goin' on there. Not much revelation as far as I can see. If Jesus thought he was God, why didn't he just come out and explicitly, plainly and simply say "I am God"? Why did he leave it for various Church councils to settle the matter and make that determination, hundreds of years later?

Talk about theologizing and private interpretation about how you would have liked to have seen things go down? Uuuuummm . . . my post was filled with Scripture verses as well as historical record regarding Sacred Tradition to prove Jesus is God. Your post contains an argument from silence and conjecture.

It did not take hundreds of years later to settle anything. The divinity of Christ was believed from the beginning as is demonstrated in Scripture, demonstrated by Church teaching, and demonstrated in early church writings. The reason things often need to be clarified is because hundreds of years later some heretic comes along and attempts to spout something other than truth and the Church needs to make a formal declaration.

Besides the same could be said about the Bible itself. You know it was written over the course of a century after the death of Jesus. Does this nullify it?

Or why didn't any of the apostles say "Jesus is God" . Not even Paul. What were they afraid of if they believed it to be true, why didn't they just say so?

I already showed Scripture that shows they thought just that. Why don’t you in your everyday life say Ben is human when talking with or about Ben?

Either they were afraid to do so, or they didn't quite believe it or want to go that far, or what ever reason.

Like I said, I have debunked your theory that there is no Scriptural evidence that Jesus is God, but even if the gospel writers didn’t know that (even though Scripture shows otherwise) that wouldn’t even make your case, because Scripture itself tells us there was much that the disciples did not yet know – much more that they were to still learn. And that is why Christ established His Church. There were quite a few things it took the disciples awhile to comprehend.

Contrast all this to what the OT/Hebrew Bible says about Yahweh. In repeated verses, the Old Testament writers make the claim that "the LORD (YHVH) is God" or "blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD (YHVH)". "My help comes from the LORD (YHVH) who made Heaven and earth". Explicit, no beating around the bush.

Yep, and Jesus said I Am – that’s all He needed to say because everyone already was familiar with previous writings you mentioned above describing God this way. They knew exactly what that means. Why don’t you? In fact, it’s what got Jesus killed.

But if I grant for the sake of argument that the NT makes the case for Jesus Divinity, that is still only two Persons, not the three required for a Trinity.

We can discuss the proof in Scripture for the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Blessed Trinity as well. We can also discuss that that is what the Church teaches and it is just as important to recognize the authority of the Church as it is to recognize the authority of Scripture – Scripture itself tells us this. So, just doesn't seem you have much of case.