I am compiling lists of what Jesus commanded us to do to follow him. They easily came under topics. The first I would like to explore is his command for all to follow the Law and Prophets. I used the four gospels only.
Here is Matthew:
5:14, 17-19 7:12-24 15:4-9 19:7 11:50 22:37-40 23:1-3
28:19-20
Mark:
1:44 7:8-13 10:2-12 10:19 12:29-31
Luke-Acts, 1:
4:4 4:8 4:12 5:14 8:21 10:26-28 11:28 16:16-18 16:29-31
17:10? 18:20
John :
5:45-47 6:45 7:19 8:17 10:34-38 14:15,21,23-24 15:10,25
These are verses where Jesus says follow the law or obey my commands. Which many of his commands were to uphold the Law. This list is not authoritative or probably fully complete. It came one evening as I read through the 4 Gospels completely and wrote down chapter and verse I says pertaining to the Law.
Looking at this alone. Why are we not following the Law that Christ told his followers to follow?
What did Christ Yeshua command us, part 1-Obey the Law
Moderator: Moderators
-
brianbbs67
- Guru
- Posts: 1871
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:07 am
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
-
tam
- Savant
- Posts: 6443
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
- Has thanked: 353 times
- Been thanked: 324 times
- Contact:
Re: What did Christ Yeshua command us, part 1-Obey the Law
Post #41Peace to you,
I'm sorry, brian, perhaps I was unclear:
If at some point the law of Moses does change (and it does - the word 'until' implies that it happens at some point: "not one jot will drop from the law UNTIL..."), does that mean that God has changed?
If your answer is no, then the law of Moses cannot be connected to God having changed. If your answer is yes, then how does that work with God being the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow?
But the law that is love is forever, because God is Himself love and God does not change.
(And you already know that the law (that is written) had some things added to it that were not true from the beginning (such as the law on divorce). Moses gave some laws not because they were true from the beginning, but because the hearts of the people were too hard. Mark 10:5)
The law did have a purpose, and that purpose was to lead to Christ. Now that Christ has come, we are not under the guardian leading to Christ; we are under Christ Himself.
He is our Teacher (our instructor).
The law (like the scriptures) do not give life.
"You diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify to me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."
Some parts of the law helped with life in this world (such as treatment/isolation for contagious disease, different molds, etc). Some parts were to help Israel see their own sins (a mirror, rather than a pointing finger). Some parts were meant to help Israel learn to distinguish between the holy and the common (and therefore these parts have more to do with the spiritual than the physical world).
But the purpose of the Law and the Prophets was to bear witness to Christ. The law was a tutor leading to Christ. Once Christ has come, HE is the One to whom we listen and after whom we follow.
"My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me."
**
My Lord also did not only partially fulfill the Law and the Prophets: He is the One to whom they were bearing witness to begin with.
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem..."
Then [Jesus] took the Twelve aside and said to them, "Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything the prophets have written about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
**
I do not know where this comes from, except perhaps that some are attempting to put people back under the law, and in order to do that, they seem to need to separate the law into two parts, and teach that Christ sacrificed himself for a portion of the law.
Not only does this teaching indicate that Christ is not enough, that His blood is not enough, where does Christ teach this Himself?
I am not sure what divorce you are speaking of, might you elaborate?
Israel (for the most part) rejected God (by rejecting His Son); not the other way around (Romans 11:1,2).
Or adultery.
(It is the old covenant/contract that was done away with, with the death of Christ - since God cannot Himself die).
Thank you Brian, and to you as well,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
You have assumed correctly.brianbbs67 wrote: [Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
He did fulfill the law. See definition C, here.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... lexResults
When did Christ command us the law was done away with himself?
Heaven and Earth remain. All the prophet's have not come to pass. So, not one Jot or tittle can pass from the law.
Did Christ proclaim ALL is finished or it(his part) is finished?
Okay, I have to ask a question about this. I know that elsewhere you (and others) have posted that the law can never pass away, and part (or most) of the reasoning used to support this is because God "is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow". Right?
So the verse under question is this:
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
My question is:
If nothing will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished, does that not mean that at some point, "even the smallest letter, the least stroke of the pen" HAS or WILL disappear?
If so, will/does that mean God has changed? Or might it simply mean that the law had a specific purpose (to be a guardian leading to Christ viewtopic.php?p=953581#953581), a purpose for which it had served, once Christ came?
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
I'm sorry, brian, perhaps I was unclear:
If at some point the law of Moses does change (and it does - the word 'until' implies that it happens at some point: "not one jot will drop from the law UNTIL..."), does that mean that God has changed?
If your answer is no, then the law of Moses cannot be connected to God having changed. If your answer is yes, then how does that work with God being the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow?
The law (of Moses) changes (and we are not under that law; we are under Christ, Galatians 3:24, 25).If God is always the same and He says His law is forever, it is.
But the law that is love is forever, because God is Himself love and God does not change.
(And you already know that the law (that is written) had some things added to it that were not true from the beginning (such as the law on divorce). Moses gave some laws not because they were true from the beginning, but because the hearts of the people were too hard. Mark 10:5)
the law has its purpose, Torah actually means Instruction.
The law did have a purpose, and that purpose was to lead to Christ. Now that Christ has come, we are not under the guardian leading to Christ; we are under Christ Himself.
He is our Teacher (our instructor).
The law (like the scriptures) do not give life.
"You diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify to me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."
So the Torah is actually the owner's manual to life on this world. Till heaven and Earth and all the prophecies happen, it still is.
Some parts of the law helped with life in this world (such as treatment/isolation for contagious disease, different molds, etc). Some parts were to help Israel see their own sins (a mirror, rather than a pointing finger). Some parts were meant to help Israel learn to distinguish between the holy and the common (and therefore these parts have more to do with the spiritual than the physical world).
But the purpose of the Law and the Prophets was to bear witness to Christ. The law was a tutor leading to Christ. Once Christ has come, HE is the One to whom we listen and after whom we follow.
"My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me."
**
My Lord also did not only partially fulfill the Law and the Prophets: He is the One to whom they were bearing witness to begin with.
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem..."
Then [Jesus] took the Twelve aside and said to them, "Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything the prophets have written about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
**
Jesus was the sacrifice of the handwritings of ordinances against us.
I do not know where this comes from, except perhaps that some are attempting to put people back under the law, and in order to do that, they seem to need to separate the law into two parts, and teach that Christ sacrificed himself for a portion of the law.
Not only does this teaching indicate that Christ is not enough, that His blood is not enough, where does Christ teach this Himself?
IE, God's divorce of israel.
I am not sure what divorce you are speaking of, might you elaborate?
Israel (for the most part) rejected God (by rejecting His Son); not the other way around (Romans 11:1,2).
So, marraige being an eternal vow, can not be negated without the death of a partner .
Or adultery.
(It is the old covenant/contract that was done away with, with the death of Christ - since God cannot Himself die).
Again, what divorce are you referring to please?This was the "mystery" the Pharisees looked for years upon years. How could God take Isreal back after divorce?
Peace to you, Tam
Thank you Brian, and to you as well,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Re: What did Christ Yeshua command us, part 1-Obey the Law
Post #42[Replying to post 39 by brianbbs67]
The Law is all or nothing.
Numbers 15:15-16 New International Version (NIV)
15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.’�
The Law is all or nothing.
Numbers 15:15-16 New International Version (NIV)
15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.’�
-
brianbbs67
- Guru
- Posts: 1871
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:07 am
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: What did Christ Yeshua command us, part 1-Obey the Law
Post #43[Replying to post 41 by tam]
Jeremiah 3 and 31 are good place to look for the divorce and others.
A close read of exodus will reveal that God instructions (Torah) were place within the ark of the covenant. The handwriting of the ordinances against us(penalty for breaking the law) were placed on a scroll on the outside of the ark. Apparently , there was a reason. The writing of the Ordinances was the law removed by Christ. This was what God called the curse. (the penalty we are not subject to because of him)Eph 3:11-16. So, we are removed from the punishment not the rules. Sin is defined as transgressing the law. No law, no sin. So, when Paul asks the crowd who is freed from the penalty, "Should we then sin? Heavens no!"
I found this link while looking for verses to reply to you. I do not know who this is, but he explains it as I understand it.
https://www.douglashamp.com/gods-divorc ... -covenant/
Peace to you and wisdom of God
Jeremiah 3 and 31 are good place to look for the divorce and others.
A close read of exodus will reveal that God instructions (Torah) were place within the ark of the covenant. The handwriting of the ordinances against us(penalty for breaking the law) were placed on a scroll on the outside of the ark. Apparently , there was a reason. The writing of the Ordinances was the law removed by Christ. This was what God called the curse. (the penalty we are not subject to because of him)Eph 3:11-16. So, we are removed from the punishment not the rules. Sin is defined as transgressing the law. No law, no sin. So, when Paul asks the crowd who is freed from the penalty, "Should we then sin? Heavens no!"
I found this link while looking for verses to reply to you. I do not know who this is, but he explains it as I understand it.
https://www.douglashamp.com/gods-divorc ... -covenant/
Peace to you and wisdom of God
Re: What did Christ Yeshua command us, part 1-Obey the Law
Post #44[Replying to post 43 by brianbbs67]
So the new covenant despite being prophecied to be the Law written on the hearts and not taught by men still needs to be taught by men and explained in every minute detail?
And the details themselves are disputed two millennia later?
So the new covenant despite being prophecied to be the Law written on the hearts and not taught by men still needs to be taught by men and explained in every minute detail?
And the details themselves are disputed two millennia later?
-
brianbbs67
- Guru
- Posts: 1871
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:07 am
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: What did Christ Yeshua command us, part 1-Obey the Law
Post #45Do we not know what is right and wrong without reflection? Not every minute detail, but general right and wrong? In your assumption, God, who says He does not change, has changed. If so, we should forget Him too.postroad wrote: [Replying to post 43 by brianbbs67]
So the new covenant despite being prophecied to be the Law written on the hearts and not taught by men still needs to be taught by men and explained in every minute detail?
And the details themselves are disputed two millennia later?
I would say it needs to be taught and reinforced as many resist it. Even though they know. Do not people do everyday that which they know is wrong, but yet do it still?
A black and white read of the law leaves very little to debate as much of it is moot. Or forbidden in our countries so that it can not be done. What is wrong with doing as God instructed? This is what Christ taught, over and over.
Re: What did Christ Yeshua command us, part 1-Obey the Law
Post #46[Replying to post 45 by brianbbs67
Do what you want but my position still stands. It isn't what was promised so why bother presenting it with any attachment to the prophecy? It is a recycled failed prophecy 2500 years to late already. 2000 years ago it was repackaged with a new set of failed prophecy. And here you are today with a messianic version attempting to foist this failure to launch concept yet again. This version had its birth in 1948 and its time is up. Jesus isn't coming back for this or any generation.
Do what you want but my position still stands. It isn't what was promised so why bother presenting it with any attachment to the prophecy? It is a recycled failed prophecy 2500 years to late already. 2000 years ago it was repackaged with a new set of failed prophecy. And here you are today with a messianic version attempting to foist this failure to launch concept yet again. This version had its birth in 1948 and its time is up. Jesus isn't coming back for this or any generation.
-
brianbbs67
- Guru
- Posts: 1871
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:07 am
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: What did Christ Yeshua command us, part 1-Obey the Law
Post #47Of course you position is intractable, as you will it.postroad wrote: [Replying to post 45 by brianbbs67
Do what you want but my position still stands. It isn't what was promised so why bother presenting it with any attachment to the prophecy? It is a recycled failed prophecy 2500 years to late already. 2000 years ago it was repackaged with a new set of failed prophecy. And here you are today with a messianic version attempting to foist this failure to launch concept yet again. This version had its birth in 1948 and its time is up. Jesus isn't coming back for this or any generation.
Forget your personal opinion of such things.
Did Christ preach keeping the law? Short and quick answer is yes. Which is what this thread is about. Since that is what he taught, if people are "christians" shouldn't they follow as he did?
I realize you believe its all bunk. even if it is, does not detract from Christ calling us to follow him and thereby the law. My point to fellow believers(and everyone else) is, that if they wish to do as Christ did, they must actually do as he did. Or they do not follow completely.
-
brianbbs67
- Guru
- Posts: 1871
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:07 am
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: What did Christ Yeshua command us, part 1-Obey the Law
Post #49I do not know for sure. Who does? I would imagine no, but I also imagine God has a law in Heaven also. Every kingdom has laws. The laws in Heaven are probably more stringent than those here. They could be very similar. Its all conjecture for now.
