Does God's absolute predestination make God unfair?

[shnarkle]

The claim is that God cannot be righteous and sovereign. He must be one or the other. He cannot predestine people to destruction and be just at the same time.

If God fits vessels for destruction, isn't it clear that he has a purpose for them? If not, then does God make vessels for no purpose, or perhaps simply random purpose?

When Paul says, "Who are you to reply against God?" he is effectively pointing out that some questions shouldn't be asked in the first place.

How do you reconcile the truth of the bible to your own logic? How do you reconcile man's moral responsibility to God's predestination of all events? If God is omnipotent, how can he be fair for judging men for their sins?

[JehovahsWitness]

6. He chooses not know that every 4 seconds a child / baby dies (on average) world wide because of lack of clean water or food.

A what are you talking about ?! I think you have confused foreknowlge with knowledge.

Foreknowledge is knowing things in advance.

Knowledge is simply knowing things.

Knowing that every 4 seconds a child / baby dies (on average) world wide because of lack of clean water or food", is knowledge. You don't need Foreknowledge for that, you just need Bono.

There Is nothing in any part of the universe that happens without God knowing about it. He simply does not choose to systematically look to see what each and every individual will do before they do it.



JW

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 30 by JehovahsWitness]

I like to look at it this way.

My car can go 120 MPH. Just because I have the power to go 120 MPH does that mean I have to 120 MPH everywhere I go, even into my own driveway?

No. We use power as needed. Why does God have to use 100% of His power at all times when only what is needed will do?

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 30 by JehovahsWitness]

I like to look at it this way.

My car can go 120 MPH. Just because I have the power to go 120 MPH does that mean I have to 120 MPH everywhere I go, even into my own driveway?

No. We use power as needed. Why does God have to use 100% of His power at all times when only what is needed will do?

We aren't talking about power, we are talking about knowledge.

The idea that God could choose to not know what he knows is absurd. His knowledge is not some tool he uses as in your example of a car nor do I suspect he has a gas pedal to control his thoughts. His knowledge is integral to his personhood, not an outside component.

When absurdities must be used to support certain theologies, it is obvious that the theology is flawed.


Tcg

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 30 by JehovahsWitness]

I like to look at it this way.

My car can go 120 MPH. Just because I have the power to go 120 MPH does that mean I have to 120 MPH everywhere I go, even into my own driveway?

No. We use power as needed. Why does God have to use 100% of His power at all times when only what is needed will do?

We aren't talking about power, we are talking about knowledge.

The idea that God could choose to not know what he knows is absurd. His knowledge is not some tool he uses as in your example of a car nor do I suspect he has a gas pedal to control his thoughts. His knowledge is integral to his personhood, not an outside component.

When absurdities must be used to support certain theologies, it is obvious that the theology is flawed.


Tcg

Your theory though rests on that time is linear. That everything has been written already. This doesn't appear to be the case.

It is not absurd to respect one's privacy. So yes our ability to gain knowledge is a power that we all use to varying degrees. Even Jehovah God.

"I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.� Genesis 18:21

That scripture shows that God doesn't just 'know' everything at all times. Otherwise, why say He's going to 'get to know it' if He already knew.

[Am I blind.]

[Replying to post 31 by JehovahsWitness]

The entire point is that this God of yours that created everything, knows everything or chooses not to know or see everything or however you want to believe it, is allowing according to your belief, understanding and / or knowledge, the deaths of millions of children every year because he wants us to chose the 'right path' and chose a life in heaven rather than death or hell or whatever you believe.
I notice that pin seeker has added scriptural quotes that may in some way support what I am trying to say, whether that is his or her intention I don't know.
The point about the children dying around the world links my thoughts to God ignoring the suffering of of these children. Surely at least some of their parents prey to God, even if only for their children's sake. Are their prayers answered? Is the answer that these children will suffer now for a better life in the world to come? Why doesn't God end badness? Because the appointed time has not yet come?
Instead of allowing Satan to be cast down to earth, knowing how he had already misled even the Angels, why was he not cast to another planet or just destroyed when he first rebelled? That way, no children suffering, no starvation, no murder, no rape, no wars.

As a parent myself, I would rather die than let my children suffer anything like some have to suffer. As you say God wants us to choose life or death he knows how it will end but is still content to let this world remain the way it is, the way he has let it become. I may go a step further and say that if your God exists and created everything he made some sort of allowance for evil. Without knowledge of good how can evil exist?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 31 by JehovahsWitness]

The entire point is that this God of yours that created everything, knows everything or chooses not to know or see everything or however you want to believe it, is allowing according to your belief, understanding and / or knowledge, the deaths of millions of children every year because he wants us to chose the 'right path' and chose a life in heaven rather than death or hell or whatever you believe.
I notice that pin seeker has added scriptural quotes that may in some way support what I am trying to say, whether that is his or her intention I don't know.
The point about the children dying around the world links my thoughts to God ignoring the suffering of of these children. Surely at least some of their parents prey to God, even if only for their children's sake. Are their prayers answered? Is the answer that these children will suffer now for a better life in the world to come? Why doesn't God end badness? Because the appointed time has not yet come?
Instead of allowing Satan to be cast down to earth, knowing how he had already misled even the Angels, why was he not cast to another planet or just destroyed when he first rebelled? That way, no children suffering, no starvation, no murder, no rape, no wars.

As a parent myself, I would rather die than let my children suffer anything like some have to suffer. As you say God wants us to choose life or death he knows how it will end but is still content to let this world remain the way it is, the way he has let it become. I may go a step further and say that if your God exists and created everything he made some sort of allowance for evil. Without knowledge of good how can evil exist?

Do you ever get string all tangled up its almost impossible to separate the different threads? You pull one free but it seems to tighten a knot further along? Sometimes the only thing to do is cut it into sections. Your post is full of so many issues, misunderstandings, inaccuracies and questions I would advise taking them one at a time and posting each one as an entirely independent thread.


JW


ps: Do you realize your first sentence is an entire paragraph long?!

[PinSeeker]

A lot of folks here ignoring God's Word, I see. Oh, well. So it goes.

"Foreknowledge is knowing things in advance."

The way we think of it in English as it is generally used today, that's true. But the foreknowledge referred to in Romans 8:29 is very, very different.

• "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

The foreknowledge spoken of here is not mere "knowing what will take place in advance of its occurrence." First, in this sense, God foreknows everybody and everything, whereas Paul is referring to a particular group (that God predestined, called, justified, and glorified). And second, if God predestines people because they are going to believe, then the ground of their salvation is in themselves and their merit instead of in Him and His mercy, which is contrary to what Paul has just said -- indeed, Paul's whole emphasis is on God's free initiative of grace.

In the Greek, the verb 'to know' as it is used here expresses much more than mere intellectual cognition. It denotes a personal relationship of care and affection. Thus, when God 'knows' people, it is to say that He watches over them and cares for them. Paul uses 'foreknew' in Romans 8:29 in the exact same sense that he uses the same word again in Romans 11:2 -- "God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew," that is, whom He loved and chose (Romans 11:2). "Know" is used in a sense practically synonymous with "love." "Whom He foreknew" is therefore very much equivalent to "whom He foreloved." So, as Paul uses the word, foreknowledge is a sovereign, distinguishing love. And this fits with Moses's great statement:

• "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you..." (Deuteronomy 7:7 and following)

And it also fits with John's great statement:

• "We love, because He first loved us." (1 John 4:19)

The only source of diving election and predestination is divine love.

Grace and peace to you all.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 31 by JehovahsWitness]

The entire point is that this God of yours that created everything, knows everything or chooses not to know or see everything or however you want to believe it, is allowing according to your belief, understanding and / or knowledge, the deaths of millions of children every year because he wants us to chose the 'right path' and chose a life in heaven rather than death or hell or whatever you believe.
I notice that pin seeker has added scriptural quotes that may in some way support what I am trying to say, whether that is his or her intention I don't know.
The point about the children dying around the world links my thoughts to God ignoring the suffering of of these children. Surely at least some of their parents prey to God, even if only for their children's sake. Are their prayers answered? Is the answer that these children will suffer now for a better life in the world to come? Why doesn't God end badness? Because the appointed time has not yet come?
Instead of allowing Satan to be cast down to earth, knowing how he had already misled even the Angels, why was he not cast to another planet or just destroyed when he first rebelled? That way, no children suffering, no starvation, no murder, no rape, no wars.

As a parent myself, I would rather die than let my children suffer anything like some have to suffer. As you say God wants us to choose life or death he knows how it will end but is still content to let this world remain the way it is, the way he has let it become. I may go a step further and say that if your God exists and created everything he made some sort of allowance for evil. Without knowledge of good how can evil exist?

Do you ever get string all tangled up its almost impossible to separate the different threads? You pull one free but it seems to tighten a knot further along? Sometimes the only thing to do is cut it into sections. Your post is full of so many issues, misunderstandings, inaccuracies and questions I would advise taking them one at a time and posting each one as an entirely independent thread.


JW


ps: Do you realize your first sentence is an entire paragraph long?!

Nice illustration! Might I add that a good place to start the de-tangling is at the beginning of the thread. I think it starts with the question is there a God or superior being at all?

This forum is not for that type of question to be answered. In this forum it is assumed there is a God and that the Bible has the final authority in matters about God. Everything else is opinion. (Though there are those that refuse to accept that rule in this forum but w/e.)

In any case, before moving forward at all in the great de-tangling, starting in the middle isn't a good place to start.

I'd recommend the questions in this order, and once a person is convinced they have the answer move on to the next question:
1. Is there a God? (If no ignore the other questions)
2. What is their name?
3. How do we find out what is their intentions are?
4. How can we harmonize our life with those intentions?

A lot of people try to start with the statement, 'someone should be doing something'. Yet forget to ask themselves, 'what should I be doing'?

[John Bauer]

The claim is that God ... cannot predestine people to destruction and be just at the same time.

Why not? Because they don't deserve it? If judgment and destruction is what they deserve (and it is), then it is just. And if we're dealing with Christianity on its own presuppositions, then they do deserve it—for their many sins.

How do you reconcile man's moral responsibility to God's predestination of all events?

This is something that is already reconciled in Scripture. See for example Isaiah 10:5-19 (cf. 2 Kings 19:21-28), where we have Sennacherib blasphemously raising himself against God and his people, for which God judges him—even though God orchestrated these things to accomplish his judgment against Mount Zion and Jerusalem for their wickedness. "I send [the Assyrian king] against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people who anger me ... But this is not what he intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations." Once God finished judging Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he then punished the Assyrian king "for what he has proudly planned and for the arrogant attitude he displays," that is, his many sins.

See also Genesis 50:19-21: "But Joseph answered them, 'Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? As for you, you meant to harm me, but God intended it for a good purpose, so he could preserve the lives of many people, as you can see this day." Compare with Genesis 45:4-8: "Joseph said to his brothers, 'Come closer to me,' so they came near. Then he said, 'I am Joseph your brother, whom you sold into Egypt. Now, do not be upset and do not be angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me ahead of you to preserve life! For these past two years there has been famine in the land and for five more years there will be neither plowing nor harvesting. God sent me ahead of you to preserve you on the earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance. So now, it is not you who sent me here, but God. He has made me an adviser to Pharaoh, lord over all his household, and ruler over all the land of Egypt'."

God is willing to "demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power," but he nevertheless endures "with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction." And this is in concert with his desire to "make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:22-23).

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 39 by John Bauer]

An important distinction between punishment and positive discipline:

Punishment is the tool of desperate dictators and barbaric authoritarians. Positive discipline is the tool of wise intellectuals and compassionate leaders. To punish rather than discipline is to respond with ignorance and fear instead of care and wisdom.

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." - Albert Einstein