Has anyone fallen from grace?

[shnarkle]

If we can "fall from grace", isn't Christ's intercession ineffective?

The word "elect" means chosen of God. If God makes this choice, can Satan negate it, by working through a rebellious heart? How? How can one of the elect rebel after being saved by God's grace? Isn't the idea of regeneration based upon the converted heart by God?

Once God has chosen one of his elect, can Satan's accusation persuade God to hand them over to Satan? If so, then what power is there in Christ's death and resurrection? Have Christ's intercessory prayers on behalf of the elect become ineffective now that he has taken his place at the right hand of the Father? What is the likihood that God will not listen to his son? Does the father not trust the judgment of his son?

If the regenerate man has the power to condemn themselves, then they can overcome the election of God, and the intercession of Christ. Satan can appeal to one's autonomy the same way he appealed to Adam and Eve in order that one may condemn themselves. Therefore Christ's intercession fails to accomplish anything.

Therefore Christians can have no confidence in their own prayers. If autonomous man can overcome Christ's prayers, then hasn't Satan defeated Christ? Hasn't Satan has defeated the power of prayer?

[showme]

If we can "fall from grace", isn't Christ's intercession ineffective?

The word "elect" means chosen of God. If God makes this choice, can Satan negate it, by working through a rebellious heart? How? How can one of the elect rebel after being saved by God's grace? Isn't the idea of regeneration based upon the converted heart by God?

Once God has chosen one of his elect, can Satan's accusation persuade God to hand them over to Satan? If so, then what power is there in Christ's death and resurrection? Have Christ's intercessory prayers on behalf of the elect become ineffective now that he has taken his place at the right hand of the Father? What is the likihood that God will not listen to his son? Does the father not trust the judgment of his son?

If the regenerate man has the power to condemn themselves, then they can overcome the election of God, and the intercession of Christ. Satan can appeal to one's autonomy the same way he appealed to Adam and Eve in order that one may condemn themselves. Therefore Christ's intercession fails to accomplish anything.

Therefore Christians can have no confidence in their own prayers. If autonomous man can overcome Christ's prayers, then hasn't Satan defeated Christ? Hasn't Satan has defeated the power of prayer?

The "elect" were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8, and yet according to Yeshua in Matthew 24:24, the elect can possibly be misled, if not forever, at least possibly for a time. For everyone else, they worship the beast. Your false gospel of grace/cross, is simply part of the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:11), which was presented by the "false prophet", Paul. That in itself, puts the "deceived" at around 2 billion souls.

As an example of falling from grace, the Chief's defensive coordinator has just fallen from grace, and has been fired.

[ttruscott]

If we can "fall from grace", isn't Christ's intercession ineffective?

The impetus of Galatians 5 would seem to be to bring those who fell from grace back to Christ while excluding the agitators who were turning them against each other over keeping the Jewish religious law.

Therefore I conclude that as Heb 12:5-11 tells us, that just as there are ups and downs in the walk of the reborn Christian elect and the downs are disciplined without any jeopardy to their eternal state, so too these folk are in a down but the words "fall from grace" should not be taken to refer to their becoming reprobate since none of His will be lost, John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. ie, a sheep is NOT a repentant goat (and a goat can never repent to become a sheep) nor can a sheep un-repent back to being a goat.

Sheep and goats were separated into their respective groups by their own free will choices about YHWH and HIS Son pre-earth and each was sown into the world by their respective Fathers, Matt 13:36-39.

[ttruscott]

The "elect" were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8, and yet according to Yeshua in Matthew 24:24, the elect can possibly be misled, if not forever, at least possibly for a time.

If, as I suggest, our election was merit based as we were all alive in the spirit world when we were confronted by YHWH's claims to be our GOD by a proclamation of the gospel, Col 1:23, and those who put their faith in HIS claims were elected to be HIS bride, and saved from any and all sin, and others were passed over for election due to their rejection of faith in HIM deciding instead that HE was a false god and a liar...,

then for some of these elect who were HIS elect sheep, to become sinful, needing redemption as promised, they indeed had to be misled.

Since once some had chosen to repudiate HIS claims to be our GOD and since HE cannot abide to live with evil, HIS next order of business would have to have been the judgement so HE called everyone to come out for among them (the reprobate), a call repeated often on earth as per 2 Corinthians 6:17, so the reprobate could be judged. At this some elect rebelled against this call, claiming that if given time the reprobate might repent and that it was unfair as unfaith was too little a sin to be ostracized forever and how could a GOD of love torture anyone forever anyway, etc etc.

This made these rebellious elect sinful and to learn to repent of their sin and to learn that HE was correct in HIS estimation of what was necessary for the reprobate, HE has us live together on this earth as per the parable of the sinful good seed and the tares, Matt 13.

So yes we misled ourselves that our love for someone who chose against faith in GOD was worth more than HIS warnings about the natural repercussions of such a choice causing the postponement of the judgement and the use of earth as a Prison planet.

[showme]

The "elect" were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8, and yet according to Yeshua in Matthew 24:24, the elect can possibly be misled, if not forever, at least possibly for a time.

If, as I suggest, our election was merit based as we were all alive in the spirit world when we were confronted by YHWH's claims to be our GOD by a proclamation of the gospel, Col 1:23, and those who put their faith in HIS claims were elected to be HIS bride, and saved from any and all sin, and others were passed over for election due to their rejection of faith in HIM deciding instead that HE was a false god and a liar...,

then for some of these elect who were HIS elect sheep, to become sinful, needing redemption as promised, they indeed had to be misled.

Since once some had chosen to repudiate HIS claims to be our GOD and since HE cannot abide to live with evil, HIS next order of business would have to have been the judgement so HE called everyone to come out for among them (the reprobate), a call repeated often on earth as per 2 Corinthians 6:17, so the reprobate could be judged. At this some elect rebelled against this call, claiming that if given time the reprobate might repent and that it was unfair as unfaith was too little a sin to be ostracized forever and how could a GOD of love torture anyone forever anyway, etc etc.

This made these rebellious elect sinful and to learn to repent of their sin and to learn that HE was correct in HIS estimation of what was necessary for the reprobate, HE has us live together on this earth as per the parable of the sinful good seed and the tares, Matt 13.

So yes we misled ourselves that our love for someone who chose against faith in GOD was worth more than HIS warnings about the natural repercussions of such a choice causing the postponement of the judgement and the use of earth as a Prison planet.

Your quotes seem to stem from the false prophet Paul, who is a son of hell. I can see whereas his twisted message would send one into a tailspin. And everyone is judged, whether you call it karma, or whatever. What ever you do to others, will eventually fall on your head. On the other hand, according to Paul, if you say his magic prayer, and believe in him, you are "saved", and "you surely shall not die" (Genesis 3:4), but be turned from perishable into imperishable in a twinkling of an eye. People following Paul (Matthew 7:15), and the other "false prophets", are on the "broad" "way" to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), and to them, it might appear that they are on a "Prison planet". They apparently think that suicide or death is their only release.

Your PCE theology is incorrect, as all were sent to earth, the wicked and the righteous. It just seems that there are a lot of wicked, because apparently there are. False witnessing seems to be the meal for the day.

[shnarkle]

If we can "fall from grace", isn't Christ's intercession ineffective?

The word "elect" means chosen of God. If God makes this choice, can Satan negate it, by working through a rebellious heart? How? How can one of the elect rebel after being saved by God's grace? Isn't the idea of regeneration based upon the converted heart by God?

Once God has chosen one of his elect, can Satan's accusation persuade God to hand them over to Satan? If so, then what power is there in Christ's death and resurrection? Have Christ's intercessory prayers on behalf of the elect become ineffective now that he has taken his place at the right hand of the Father? What is the likihood that God will not listen to his son? Does the father not trust the judgment of his son?

If the regenerate man has the power to condemn themselves, then they can overcome the election of God, and the intercession of Christ. Satan can appeal to one's autonomy the same way he appealed to Adam and Eve in order that one may condemn themselves. Therefore Christ's intercession fails to accomplish anything.

Therefore Christians can have no confidence in their own prayers. If autonomous man can overcome Christ's prayers, then hasn't Satan defeated Christ? Hasn't Satan has defeated the power of prayer?

The "elect" were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8, and yet according to Yeshua in Matthew 24:24, the elect can possibly be misled, if not forever, at least possibly for a time. For everyone else, they worship the beast. Your false gospel of grace/cross, is simply part of the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:11), which was presented by the "false prophet", Paul. That in itself, puts the "deceived" at around 2 billion souls.

As an example of falling from grace, the Chief's defensive coordinator has just fallen from grace, and has been fired.

When the author states:

if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

he isn't suggesting that it is possible. Therefore it isn't possible to deceive the elect.

To say the elect would be decieived, if it were possible spotlights that the elect can't be deceived.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]

I think the notion fall from grace is confused and should be unpacked. Is it a calvinist notion?

Christian grace is a legal term where God has paid for your sins. If you accept that payment how can a just God deny your salvation? In that sense it certainly is not possible to fall from grace.

Falling from grace is a phrase for me that describes the conscious or usually unconscious decision to no longer rely on Jesus for salvation but to rely on yourself. Yes I would imagine that people do fall from grace.

[ElCodeMonkey]

People following Paul (Matthew 7:15), and the other "false prophets", are on the "broad" "way" to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), and to them, it might appear that they are on a "Prison planet"
...
False witnessing seems to be the meal for the day.

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[marco]

Your PCE theology is incorrect, as all were sent to earth, the wicked and the righteous. It just seems that there are a lot of wicked, because apparently there are. False witnessing seems to be the meal for the day.

At least PCE can be called theology rather than the Hollywood entertainment that comes from regarding Revelation as a grimoire. I'm not Paul's prime supporter but he has the advantage of being sensible.


But it is highly entertaining to be instructed in the disasters that befall humans, as predicted by the anonymous John about whom we hear in Matthew 7: "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Or beasts with an uncomfortable plurality of heads!

[showme]

Your PCE theology is incorrect, as all were sent to earth, the wicked and the righteous. It just seems that there are a lot of wicked, because apparently there are. False witnessing seems to be the meal for the day.

At least PCE can be called theology rather than the Hollywood entertainment that comes from regarding Revelation as a grimoire. I'm not Paul's prime supporter but he has the advantage of being sensible.


But it is highly entertaining to be instructed in the disasters that befall humans, as predicted by the anonymous John about whom we hear in Matthew 7: "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Or beasts with an uncomfortable plurality of heads!

Yeshua spoke in parables, so the "wicked", those without ears to hear, would not understand. (Daniel 12:10) & (Isaiah 6:8-9). Although some of the heads were pointed out. The head of "gold" was Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 2). The head/prince of Peshia and Greece were pointed out also (Daniel). You simply have to come up with the following Roman empire, which crushed the previous empires. Apparently that is a stretch of the imagination for the "many". (Matthew 7:13). As for Paul, the false prophet, of course he is sensible to the "many", for they are followers of his babel, yet he is dead, and according to Jeremiah 31:30, soon will be his followers. Now if you believe Paul, that you will be changed from perishable to imperishable in a twinkling of an eye, and never sleep/die, then you will probably get a notice from the atheist convention, that you are no longer welcome.