Has anyone fallen from grace?

[shnarkle]

If we can "fall from grace", isn't Christ's intercession ineffective?

The word "elect" means chosen of God. If God makes this choice, can Satan negate it, by working through a rebellious heart? How? How can one of the elect rebel after being saved by God's grace? Isn't the idea of regeneration based upon the converted heart by God?

Once God has chosen one of his elect, can Satan's accusation persuade God to hand them over to Satan? If so, then what power is there in Christ's death and resurrection? Have Christ's intercessory prayers on behalf of the elect become ineffective now that he has taken his place at the right hand of the Father? What is the likihood that God will not listen to his son? Does the father not trust the judgment of his son?

If the regenerate man has the power to condemn themselves, then they can overcome the election of God, and the intercession of Christ. Satan can appeal to one's autonomy the same way he appealed to Adam and Eve in order that one may condemn themselves. Therefore Christ's intercession fails to accomplish anything.

Therefore Christians can have no confidence in their own prayers. If autonomous man can overcome Christ's prayers, then hasn't Satan defeated Christ? Hasn't Satan has defeated the power of prayer?

[amortalman]

Did you never give thought to the idea that God had pre-arranged for a GROUP of co-rulers to be with His Messiah in heaven, but had not chosen each individual person who would eventually be glorified?

That would make much more sense. He purposed a group of people from the earth to reign with His Redeemer in heaven---the operative word is GROUP---but He never chose the individual members of this group.

Maybe you should first clarify what you mean by God "prearranging" a group of co-rulers. Please reference that specific wording in the scriptures. Sounds a lot like God predestined them does it not? And if he predestined them to be there he will see to it that they get there as per the scriptures in Romans.

When Adam rebelled, Jehovah immediately put into formation His plan for the redemption of mankind. He wanted a certain number from the earth to reign with the Messiah. He didn't look ahead and decide exactly which individuals that would be born would rule with the Christ. He just "prearranged" the MANNER in which the Christ would save mankind and then rule the earth. The individuals that would be involved would remain to be seen. That is not predestinating individuals. The Romans quote does not say that individuals were chosen before they were born. It refers to the PLAN that God set in motion from the founding of the world of mankind.[/qoute]

You have furnished no references for these claims, therefore, they are meaningless.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 52 by amortalman]

A few more thoughts concerning predestination.

Does God's divinity and perfection require the he be all-knowing---of everything in the future? For people who look at God this way, for him NOT to know everything in the future in their minutest detail would mean that he is imperfect. I ask, how does this show such a thing? Could not the Creator of this universe REFRAIN from knowing something if he chose to?

Perhaps you should argue that point with God. That's what the Bible teaches does it not?
Talk no more so very proudly, let not arrogance come from your mouth; for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed (1 Samuel 2:3).

O LORD, you have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from far away. You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, O LORD, you know it completely. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is so high that I cannot attain it (Psalm 139:1-6).

Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding is infinite (Psalm 147:5).

For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things (1 John 3:20).

Known to God from eternity are all his works (Acts 15:18).

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good (Proverbs 15:3).

Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure (Psalm 147:5).

Do you know the balance of the clouds, those wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge (Job 37:16).

Perhaps you are limiting God.

We have to harmonize such a view (of the necessity of omniscience) with ALL the factors of God's qualities and standards. What are his qualities---his justice, honesty, impartiality, love, mercy and kindness? His powers of foreordination must harmonize with those qualities that he has, and has demonstrated.

Perhaps you mean that we have to harmonize omniscience itself - not the necessity of it. In either case, I see no conflict between omniscience and the other attributes of God.

We have to consider as well, what he has granted to humans---free moral agency. We can see in the Scriptures that God has extended to us the privilege and RESPONSIBILITY of free choice, thereby making us accountable for our acts. (Deuteronomy 30:19,20; Joshua 24:15; Genesis 2:16,17; Gen.3:11-19; Romans 14:10-12; Hebrews 4:13) Humans are thus not robots. Man could not truly have been created in "God's image" if he were not a free moral agent. So, as I see it, God's choosing to NOT know everything that people will do harmonizes with the fact that he has given us free will. He couldn't seriously offer us choices if he already knew what we would do.

Why not? When my son was eight years old his mother baked some of his favorite cookies (chocolate chip) and told him not to touch them until after he had done his chores. Although he had opportunities he left the cookies alone. She knew he would because she knew our son. Her knowledge of what he would do did not interfere with his decision.

I believe that God's exercising of fore-knowledge is selective. Whatever he chooses to foresee, he does, and what he chooses to not foresee, he does not. He can honestly offer us choices if he has chosen not to foresee what we will do. Otherwise, there would be no reason for him to extend choices to us. If everything was all mapped out, there would be no reason for anything. People would not be free moral agents, they would have no real choices....they would not be truly responsible for their actions.

You are confusing foreknowledge with preordaining or predestining. Knowing what will happen is not the same as making it happen.

[showme]

Did you never give thought to the idea that God had pre-arranged for a GROUP of co-rulers to be with His Messiah in heaven, but had not chosen each individual person who would eventually be glorified?

That would make much more sense. He purposed a group of people from the earth to reign with His Redeemer in heaven---the operative word is GROUP---but He never chose the individual members of this group.

Maybe you should first clarify what you mean by God "prearranging" a group of co-rulers. Please reference that specific wording in the scriptures. Sounds a lot like God predestined them does it not? And if he predestined them to be there he will see to it that they get there as per the scriptures in Romans.

When Adam rebelled, Jehovah immediately put into formation His plan for the redemption of mankind. He wanted a certain number from the earth to reign with the Messiah. He didn't look ahead and decide exactly which individuals that would be born would rule with the Christ. He just "prearranged" the MANNER in which the Christ would save mankind and then rule the earth. The individuals that would be involved would remain to be seen. That is not predestinating individuals. The Romans quote does not say that individuals were chosen before they were born. It refers to the PLAN that God set in motion from the founding of the world of mankind.[/qoute]

You have furnished no references for these claims, therefore, they are meaningless.

Actually, those who would not worship the beast, and reign with "Christ" for a "millennium" (Revelation 20:4) were written in the "book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8). The rest were "deceived" (Revelation 13:14) by the beast with two horns like a lamb, through the agency of those two Christlike leaders, described as horns, Peter and Paul, the foundation of the beast Constantine's Roman church.

[onewithhim]

Let's put your argument another way. Some scientists present arguments for their interpretation of the evidence while others present different arguments for their different interpretations of the evidence. They're both quite compelling arguments. Could it be that they're both wrong?

Absolutely. But the point is there shouldn't even be any disagreements on such a monumental subject.

Of course there should be. If no one disagreed, they would all be saved, or damned. That's clearly not God's plan. He chooses who he will have mercy on and those that will remain damned.

God does NOT choose who will be damned before they are even born.

But in several places, he says he chooses who will inherit salvation. Even Jesus said his disciples didn't choose him but that he chose them. And it's clear from scripture that the ones he chooses are the only ones who will inherit everlasting life. I suppose those he does not choose go to Cincinnati.

He purposed a GROUP of heavenly co-rulers with the Redeemer, but not INDIVIDUALS. Be for real!!

You can't just make claims without backing it. Do you mind telling me which translation of the Bible you used to make your claims? Verses would be extremely helpful as well.

He never said he would know which individuals would serve with Christ. (And God can choose to NOT know whatever He chooses to not know.)

If God chooses to not know then he is not omniscient.

I use a number of versions of the Bible....NAB, NASB, KJV, NIV.
Again I say, the focus here is choosing before they are even born. Yes, God chooses those who will reign with Christ, but not before they are born. He chooses after He sees what kind of people they are.....what their heart conditions are.

I believe that I have posted verses showing that God tells people to CHOOSE whom they will serve. Just one of the verses is Deuteronomy 30:19.

I think I already covered the "omniscient" thing. God can know what he wants to know, and he can not know what he chooses to not know. He has the ABILITY to be omniscient.

If he knew everything before it happened, how could he honestly offer a choice to mankind? He would be playing a cruel game by saying to people, "Please choose to honor me and you can keep on living," when he had already condemned some to die.

(If you're serious about having a meaningful discussion, maybe you can go back and read my post #55, if you haven't already.)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 55 by onewithhim]


God doesn't have any compunction about punishing individuals for circumstances he initiated.

The Jews were required to keep a law a single generation had agreed to and was revealed to be impossible to keep. And in an instant they were held accountable for refusing to reject its authority. And this also in accordance to God's predetermined plan.

Could you please expand on your post? I don't understand what you're talking about when you say that God punishes people for what he set up.

And the Law was given to Israel to point out their NEED for a Repurchaser. The Law was a "forerunner" that led to the Messiah. No one could keep it perfectly, but they were forgiven as long as they followed it to the best of their ability, making sin offerings, etc. The people agreed, but then they went to worshipping idols and complaining about what they had to do. Why don't you think that our Creator---the One who actually MADE us---has the right to be offended when people go to bowing down and dancing around idols?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 65 by onewithhim]

Christianity claims the Jews are damned not for discarding the Law but for refusing to do so.

Did salvation suddenly come through blasphemy?


Numbers 15:29-31 New International Version (NIV)

29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.

30 “‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31 Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’�

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 25 by amortalman]

How many antichrists in heaven?

1 John 2:18-19 New International Version (NIV)

Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

There is such a close connection between 1 John 2:18-19 and Hebrews 6: 4-6 that I have to assume that you view those mentioned in Hebrews were never truly saved, to begin with, is that accurate?

I don't quite know what you're getting at by simply quoting 1 John 2:18-19. Are you claiming that the 1 John verses negate Romans 8:30? Just looking for clarity here.

May I interject?? It is evident by what the writer of Hebrews says that the people who fell away WERE "saved" by anyone's definition of being saved.

I hate to rain on your parade but many learned and respected students of the Bible can give you valid definitions of "being saved" and make a very good case that those who fell away had come very close to salvation but never became born again. They base their view on the exact wording of the Hebrew passages and compare it with other teachings on salvation, comparing scripture with scripture. Besides, Paul never said they had been saved. Surely you can understand this argument because you've used it yourself in arguing that God never said he knew who would rule with the redeemer.

I remarked on Romans 8:30 above. Please take into consideration all of my posts, and any comment by you from thenceforth is welcome.

Did you remark on it in answer to one of MY posts? If you did I haven't found it yet and I apologize. If your remark was in reply to someone else's post that's a different matter. While your posts may be interesting I haven't the time to read your's or anyone else's entire posts and I shouldn't have to. I do try to read what you say to me. Does that make sense?

You are taking what I say and twisting it. I said that God chose not to know BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED who would eventually rule with the Messiah. I didn't say that God NEVER knew who would rule with Christ. Of course he knew, when Christ actually came and was going to choose his 12 Apostles. Jesus was up all night discussing it with his Father. Of course God knew which ones' hearts were complete toward Him when He sent the Holy Spirit down to anoint Jesus' true followers.

You say that the people that Paul refers to in Hebrews 6 were ALMOST saved but weren't actually saved. I'm sorry, but that is very weak. It is clear that Paul DID say that they were saved, but they fell away. What else could it mean when he said that they had been "made partakers of the Holy Ghost?" (Heb.6:4, KJV)

People who were not "saved" did not receive the Holy Spirit. If you think that unsaved people did receive the H.S., show me.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 57 by amortalman]

You did mention Romans 8:30, and so I made those comments to you as well as anyone else who was following the discussion. (Post #25.)

[postroad]

[Replying to post 67 by onewithhim]

Did Barnabas and Paul receive the Holy Spirit?

Acts 13:2
While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.�

Which one betrayed the faith?

New International Version (NIV)

12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

New International Version (NIV)

Disagreement Between Paul and Barnabas
36 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.� 37 Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38 but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39 They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus,

So much for the unity of the Spirit.

Whole provinces chose the Jerusalem interpretation of the Gospel over Paul's

2 Timothy 1:15
[ Examples of Disloyalty and Loyalty ] You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and

After Paul's aresst in Jerusalem none of the Disciples came to his defence.

2 Timothy 4:16
At my first defense, no one came to my support, but everyone deserted me. May it not be held against them.

Something was fishy in the first place. The Spirit was warning them about their fellow believers in Jerusalem.

New International Version (NIV)

10 After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’�

12 When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, “Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.� 14 When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, “The Lord’s will be done.�

[onewithhim]

Quotes are from Post 50 by onewithhim

I disagree...with the Southern Baptists, and with you. When you taste something, you have partaken of it. How silly to mince words and beat about the bush, like the Baptists are doing. When something is clear, and it disagrees with their teaching, they find unbelievably lame excuses for such!

It is not Almighty God's fault for the disagreement among so-called sincere students of the Bible. If one really wants to find the truth, what one has to do is pray to the true God, JEHOVAH (see Psalm 83:18, KJV, and John 17:3), for wisdom, and examine the Scriptures thoroughly---not taking the word of anyone as to what is true. Compare versions, look at Interlinear Bibles, check out the Tanakh by the Jewish Publication Society, read books by people with no irons in any particular fire such as BeDuhn's Truth in Translation, and find out first-hand what other religions might teach rather than taking someone's word for it.

Tell that to a poor peasant in Myanmar who has just gotten a Bible in his language. Common sense tells us that the word of a loving, compassionate, omniscient, omnipotent, God should be written in a way that ALL people who are able to read it in their own language should be able to understand it. But the Bible we have has left many holes through which those seeking truth have fallen.

The Bible is not confusing if you examine it and discover verses that have been corrupted by scribes and copyists, and understand just which manuscripts are valid and which are suspect. The EARLIEST ones would be the most reliable. People who are lazy won't even try to learn the truth.

Dear lady, it is not a matter of laziness. The things you mentioned are the work of scholars, not your everyday housewife or a homeless man in a rescue mission. The fact remains that scholars have investigated such issues and more and come to different conclusions. You have found your version of the truth and I'm sure you believe it with all your heart. You might be right. But it adds nothing to your good stature to put down those who believe they have found the truth also and believe with all their heart.

I apologize if I have "put down" anybody. I believe that we really should shake people up a little bit, to care that the evidence in the Bible and current events show us that Jesus is coming soon. I would consider myself lazy if I didn't examine the Scriptures.

The Bible IS understandable to "the everyday housewife or a homeless man." God has seen to it that anyone can understand it. The King's English of 1611 is hard for us in the 21st century, so many modern-English versions have been produced....but it is plain to see that they leave out certain things. Why do many modern versions leave out the personal name of God? It is in the original Hebrew 7,000 times. If we look we can see it (in the form of the four Hebrew letters, Yod Heh Waw Heh---YHWH---pronounced by the King James translators as "Jehovah"), in any Jewish Tanakh. Because of this glaring inconsistency with the truth, some translators have put a lot of work into a version that includes God's name everywhere it appears in the ancient manuscripts, as well as using translations that consider the earliest manuscripts available.

The New World Translation is available to almost every language out there, in the commonly understood vernacular. God has made sure that people all around the world are getting His Word in language they can understand.