Has anyone fallen from grace?

[shnarkle]

If we can "fall from grace", isn't Christ's intercession ineffective?

The word "elect" means chosen of God. If God makes this choice, can Satan negate it, by working through a rebellious heart? How? How can one of the elect rebel after being saved by God's grace? Isn't the idea of regeneration based upon the converted heart by God?

Once God has chosen one of his elect, can Satan's accusation persuade God to hand them over to Satan? If so, then what power is there in Christ's death and resurrection? Have Christ's intercessory prayers on behalf of the elect become ineffective now that he has taken his place at the right hand of the Father? What is the likihood that God will not listen to his son? Does the father not trust the judgment of his son?

If the regenerate man has the power to condemn themselves, then they can overcome the election of God, and the intercession of Christ. Satan can appeal to one's autonomy the same way he appealed to Adam and Eve in order that one may condemn themselves. Therefore Christ's intercession fails to accomplish anything.

Therefore Christians can have no confidence in their own prayers. If autonomous man can overcome Christ's prayers, then hasn't Satan defeated Christ? Hasn't Satan has defeated the power of prayer?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 57 by amortalman]

You did mention Romans 8:30, and so I made those comments to you as well as anyone else who was following the discussion. (Post #25.)

I think you need to be more specific about what you are referring to in your posts and we can both avoid confusion. When you say "those comments" which comments are you referring to? Which Post are you referring to? Would it be Post 45 and not Post 25? If you did mean Post 45 then you should provide scripture verses that refute Romans 8:30 otherwise you're just giving your opinion instead of scripture evidence. In a Biblical debate, you need to give references from the Bible to substantiate your position. So far you have given nothing even though I have requested it several times.

Respectively, until you start doing that you are wasting my time and we have nothing to debate.

Well, I see that you are basically unwilling to discuss anything with me. I have posted many scriptures backing up my points, yet you say I have offered nothing. You are right, we are wasting each other's time. Have a pleasant day.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 80 by onewithhim]

Did God not harden national Israel against the Gospel? Did he not send the Messiah but caused them to kill him in accordance to his plan?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 80 by onewithhim]

Did God not harden national Israel against the Gospel? Did he not send the Messiah but caused them to kill him in accordance to his plan?

No, God didn't cause Israel to reject the Gospel. He allowed their hearts to be hardened, just as he allowed Pharaoh's heart to be hardened against Moses' requests. It is sheer idiocy to think that God would send his Son, the Messiah, to Israel to preach to them and offer them the privilege of ruling with him over the earth, but all the while He was hardening them so that they wouldn't accept it?



God knew that His Son would be killed, but He didn't cause it. Thank you for your good questions.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 83 by onewithhim]

But the texts explicitly state it was in accordance to prophecy. In fact the whole story proceeds from one " this happened in order that prophecy be fulfilled"

How do you reconcile these texts?

Acts 4:27-28 New International Version (NIV)

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

New International Version (NIV)

6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.�[a]

Where they condemned for refusing to reject the authority of the Law?

They were required to blaspheme God in order to be saved?

Numbers 15:29-31 New International Version (NIV)

29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.

30 “‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31 Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’�

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 83 by onewithhim]

But the texts explicitly state it was in accordance to prophecy. In fact the whole story proceeds from one " this happened in order that prophecy be fulfilled"

How do you reconcile these texts?

Acts 4:27-28 New International Version (NIV)

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

New International Version (NIV)

6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.�[a]

Where they condemned for refusing to reject the authority of the Law?

They were required to blaspheme God in order to be saved?

Numbers 15:29-31 New International Version (NIV)

29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.

30 “‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31 Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’�

Good observation, postroad. I don't think anyone could give a more satisfactory answer to your question concerning Acts 4:28 than the following:

To back up just a little....Jesus' coming to earth as the Seed of God's woman (Gen.3:15) was not predestinated before the creation of the planet. It was after the fall of the first pair that prophecies began to be given concerning the Christ. The Hebrew Scriptures do identify him as Jehovah's chosen One (Isaiah 42:1). He was foreknown before the new system's foundation at the time of his death, and was "one delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23; I Peter 1:20; Revelation 13:8).

The point has been made---that most folks haven't thought about--- that God didn't predestinate SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS to act against him and his Son, and without predestination of specific individuals, the prophecies DID predict many of the events that occurred.

Acts 4:28: But whether Jesus' case be called predestination or foreknowledge, it was HIGHLY EXCEPTIONAL and does not prove individual predestination for all persons from before the time of Adam and Eve.

So, to reiterate---if Jesus' situation on Earth was predestined, that whole thing was EXCEPTIONAL. It did not show that ALL individuals from before the creation of the planet have been predestined to live or die.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 85 by onewithhim]


If what you posted is true then these texts are false.

John 17:2
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.


Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Matthew 13:11
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

Colossians 1:25-27 New International Version (NIV)

25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


New International Version (NIV)

6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor, is
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.�[a]

Matthew 22:14
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.�


Mark 13:20
“If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.


New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Predicts His Betrayal
18 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned[a] against me.’

19 “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.

( in case you missed it, Jesus is claiming the name of God in the above text)

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 65 by onewithhim]

Christianity claims the Jews are damned not for discarding the Law but for refusing to do so.

It would be more accurate to say that "some" Christians make these claims. There are plenty of Christians who believe what the texts indicate which is that "all Israel shall be saved". That's according to Paul who wrote most of the New Testament.

Did salvation suddenly come through blasphemy?


Numbers 15:29-31 New International Version (NIV)

29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.

30 “‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31 Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’�

This is an excellent citation! It shows that God made his covenant with Israel, and it is only those who choose to join to that covenant that are saved. Moreover, it shows one of the fundamental distinctions within the Mosaic law; namely that only unintentional sin may be covered by sacrifice. Sacrifice was NEVER the remedy for intentional sin. This is reiterated by the author of Hebrews as well in vs. 10:26

[ttruscott]

Your PCE theology is incorrect, as all were sent to earth, the wicked and the righteous. .

None are righteous:

Isaiah 64:6 (not from Paul)
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Psalm 53:3 is not from Paul who preached this: All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Since by the time of their lives on earth in their sin we can know that their fall from their created attribute of being upright was pre-life on earth, as Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. tens to force us to accept our sin as a fall from created uprightness.

[ttruscott]

When the author states:

if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

he isn't suggesting that it is possible. Therefore it isn't possible to deceive the elect.

To say the elect would be decieived, if it were possible spotlights that the elect can't be deceived.

I agree. To say "If it were possible" about an impossibility is to hint that with them it is possible but they are in GOD's grace and Spirit and it is impossible with HIM.

[ttruscott]

Christ's sacrifice covers the sins of mankind except those that are DELIBERATE and willful, and are consistently PRACTICED in spite of knowing better. Those that do that are "exposing Jesus Christ to public shame," and might as well have spit on him.

All sinners must have come to be sinners by a deliberate and willful choice to rebel against HIM or they cannot be called guilty for those sins.

Such a choice enslaves us to evil so that our ability to make a true righteous decision was impaired which causes every sinner still in sin to continually and constantly practice deliberate evil, though as Romans 1 so clearly teaches, they deceive themselves, turning from the truth they know to lies because they love sin more.