Doesn't God force people to believe in Christ?

[shnarkle]

No man can come to me, unless the father which has sent me draw him:and I will raise him up at the last day" John 6:44

This isn't a call to all men to listen to the gospel, but how one attains to eternal life.

If God refuses to draw someone to Christ, can they attain salvation?

It seems that the bible says "No".

no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my father John 6:65

This act of free will doesn't appear to be man's at all, but God's alone. If Jesus says that he is the one who does the choosing, and men do not choose him, then the free agent is God who elects who he will, and no one else.

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]

Another way to read this is that people only come to Jesus if God is "alluring" to people. More of a passive drawing than an active one. God is good. God is love. So unless you like good and love, you will not be drawn to Jesus. It says just prior to those versus that it is God's will that all come, so even if it was an active drawing, and even though it requires his active hand, he would then still do it. Just because he draws them, however, doesn't mean they'll drink. So I dunno. In the end, I'm not sure how much it really says for certainty .

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]

Another way to read this is that people only come to Jesus if God is "alluring" to people. More of a passive drawing than an active one. God is good. God is love. So unless you like good and love, you will not be drawn to Jesus. It says just prior to those versus that it is God's will that all come, so even if it was an active drawing, and even though it requires his active hand, he would then still do it. Just because he draws them, however, doesn't mean they'll drink. So I dunno. In the end, I'm not sure how much it really says for certainty .

This is an interesting take on the text, and one that would be worthwhile in looking more deeply into if the verb was passive, but whether we translate it as "draw", "drag", or "allure", it is still what they are foreordained to do according to God's will.

The fact that we see this over and over in the texts themselves should be more than enough testament to its meaning. The Jonah's, and Saul's of the bible are hardly going willingly. They are intentionally rebellious and reluctant to do God's will, and only relent when there is no other option left to them. Jonah even continues to sulk after his mission is completed. Saul/Paul is blinded and rendered helpless. Hardly what anyone would interpret to be "alluring", wouldn't you say?

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 3 by shnarkle]

I think much of Jonah's story is simply made up. He may have been one who went and preached, and may have taught people to repent, but the additions of living in a fish and despising his calling to preach repentance is probably all made up, in my opinion. Paul's story is also likely a bit embellished and I read a pretty good case on these forums that it was hallucination from a condition he had. I think you make an excellent point though that if God, especially being a God of love, forces you to preach on his behalf, there is a good chance it's not particularly loving and therefore perhaps not even God at all but a demon trying to sway people. That, or just made-up nonsense. Goodness is only goodness if it is not compelled so a "good" God could not be compelling people except in the passive sense of people being drawn to goodness as one is drawn to a chocolate cake.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 3 by shnarkle]

I think much of Jonah's story is simply made up.

I do too, but that doesn't negate the fact that he's a chronic reluctant draft dodger. He prefers death to doing God's will.

He may have been one who went and preached, and may have taught people to repent, but the additions of living in a fish...

The author refers to it as "Sheol" which is the grave. People don't live in graves. Graves are for the dead.

and despising his calling to preach repentance is probably all made up, in my opinion.

And it's quite a good opinion to have, but nonetheless, it's still a made up story of one who would rather die than do God's will.

if God, especially being a God of love, forces you to preach on his behalf, there is a good chance it's not particularly loving

Not necessarily. It could very well be the love of God that eventually persuades the most reluctant into doing God's will. This doesn't negate the fact that the texts point out that it is God who is compelling them.

Goodness is only goodness if it is not compelled

So one who resists doing good no matter how innate the compulsion is actually good?

God could not be compelling people except in the passive sense of people being drawn to goodness as one is drawn to a chocolate cake.

And here again, we're talking about being drawn by something beyond one's own free will to resist. Therefore one's free will is useless.

[ttruscott]

No man can come to me, unless the father which has sent me draw him:and I will raise him up at the last day" John 6:44

This isn't a call to all men to listen to the gospel, but how one attains to eternal life.

If God refuses to draw someone to Christ, can they attain salvation?

It seems that the bible says "No".

no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my father John 6:65

This act of free will doesn't appear to be man's at all, but God's alone. If Jesus says that he is the one who does the choosing, and men do not choose him, then the free agent is God who elects who he will, and no one else.

This is the crux of my argument that we're not here on earth to find GOD but to be returned TO GOD after putting our faith in HIM (finding HIM and coming to HIM, so to speak), by their free will, but then lost that free will through choosing to be sinful and here, as sinful humans are being brought back to HIM by HIS will, HIS gift of faith through grace, since we cannot do that for ourselves any more.

This says nothing about those who have never believed, ie put their faith in HIM and are therefore outside of HIS grace eternally. Believers who sin are not condemned for their sin but non-believers who have never put their faith in HIM are condemned already; Jn 3:18.

[ttruscott]

The author refers to it as "Sheol" which is the grave. People don't live in graves. Graves are for the dead.

Point of order: it has hardly been proved that Sheol refers only to the grave of the rotting body even though many hang their theology upon this as fact.

I find the many reasons (too many to repeat here) of why the grave is a false rendering of Sheol or Hades and widely misses the mark, here: http://www.bible.ca/su-hades.htm which is summed up in point form in part F. 20 reasons why sheol is not the grave.

[2timothy316]

no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my father John 6:65

This act of free will doesn't appear to be man's at all, but God's alone. If Jesus says that he is the one who does the choosing, and men do not choose him, then the free agent is God who elects who he will, and no one else.

Taking the scripture out of context makes it seems like God is pulling in whom He wants. However, in context of the whole chapter what is happening? Many are stumbling over what Jesus had just said about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Yet even after just witnessing Jesus feed thousands with just a few fish and loaves of bread, they were stumbled over his words.

Those that were not stumbled such as Peter were asked, "You do not want to go also?" Peter replied, "Lord, whom shall we go away to?" Peter didn't leave or come to Jesus because Jehovah made him do so. Peter continued, "You have sayings of everlasting life. We have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God." The comment, 'eat my flesh and drink my blood' was a barrier and it was not Jehovah forcing people to follow or not. But to expose the imposters. Those that just wanted to see miracles or had other selfish desires. They didn't want knowledge of truth.

James 4:8 tells us “Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you.� Once this happens then He will grant you access to His Son. It is God's Word that draws a person in. While this is God's hope, it's not without choice as there are many who read God's Word today and can only hear, 'shocking' or hard to believe speech. (John 6:60) There are even posts in this very thread about the story of Jonah and how they don't believe it to be true. They find the story shocking and hard to listen to. But that again is God's barrier doing it's job with mere words on a page. Rejecting the God's Word repeals a person from Jesus and accepting draws one in.

[ttruscott]

And here again, we're talking about being drawn by something beyond one's own free will to resist. Therefore one's free will is useless.

My contention that humans who are all sinful have no free will is based upon Jesus' words that all sinners are enslaved by sin by which I take to mean that sin is like an addiction we cannot cure ourselves but need expert help to cure...an addiction that colours every decision we make but even so, does not force us to act in the most evil way possible for us all the time (a straw horse argument).

I find corroboration for this idea in Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. which, in the context of moral choices suggest we can be free, ie, that we have been freed from the slavery of evil by our rebirth and can now choose to indulge in the flesh or to serve in love in a new way.

So rather than saying our free will does us no good because HE countermands it, I claim we have no free will since we became sinners and HE only countermands our sinful evil will as far as it is addicted to evil and frees us make real choices again.

These moral choices of the reborn (not the unregenerate reprobate) are then dealt with as a parent deals any mistake of their child, with discipline and sometimes with painful discipline, Heb 12:5-11, until we are trained up to always choose righteousness and will never again choose evil at which time we are free of being judged with the tares and are heaven ready, Matt 13:28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 ‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

[ElCodeMonkey]

Goodness is only goodness if it is not compelled

So one who resists doing good no matter how innate the compulsion is actually good?

Resisting good cannot itself be good. A compelled act can also still be good if the reason was not only due to the compelling, and it does not suddenly become a bad act just because it is not a good one. It's not the act itself that is morally judged, it is the desire behind the act. In other words, the heart of a person.

God could not be compelling people except in the passive sense of people being drawn to goodness as one is drawn to a chocolate cake.

And here again, we're talking about being drawn by something beyond one's own free will to resist. Therefore one's free will is useless.

lol, are you saying it's impossible to resist chocolate cake and we have no free will against it?