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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:36 am
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Privatise the NHS?

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So, it seems that the bully Trump has put a UK-US trade deal on the table, provided we put the NHS also on the table.

Seems to me, the American health system does not work, given how many are excluded from it because they cannot afford the cost of use, or even the cost of health insurance.

And that the NHS, however much we may complain about it, generally does, given that anyone, anytime, can access it, and expect to be dealt with according to the urgency of their condition.

Should Britain abandon the principle; 'health care for everyone, free at the point of need', or maybe should the USA adopt the principle, and seek to extend this benefit to all its own citizens?

Who is right on this matter, the UK or the bully Trump/Republican/Neo-liberal US?

And/or does the bully Trump not care about people at all, only $?

Best wishes, 2RM

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:58 pm
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

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[Replying to post 1 by 2ndRateMind]

As an incidental aside; I get the following factoids from BBC news;

US pays 18% of GDP to health-care related costs.
UK pays 8% of GDP to health-care related costs.

The US system covers only the affluent. The UK system covers everyone.

I am not persuaded the US has anything to teach us about the provision of health-care. Even a 'very stable genius' should be able to work that one out.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:42 am
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

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2ndRateMind wrote:

Seems to me, the American health system does not work, given how many are excluded from it because they cannot afford the cost of use, or even the cost of health insurance.

That's just one measure of "work," the American health system works great for generating wealth for certain people.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:33 am
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

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Bust Nak wrote:

2ndRateMind wrote:

Seems to me, the American health system does not work, given how many are excluded from it because they cannot afford the cost of use, or even the cost of health insurance.

That's just one measure of "work," the American health system works great for generating wealth for certain people.


I dare say. So does dosing people to the point of addiction with opiate painkillers.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:30 am
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Everything that comes out of that stupid man's mouth is garbage! I think many people in the US would like to have a health care system like the British NHS, even if it isn't perfect. I was in contact some years ago with a woman from America whose son died because he couldn't afford to pay for his health care! Shocked

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:48 am
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JJ50 wrote:

...I was in contact some years ago with a woman from America whose son died because he couldn't afford to pay for his health care!...


I hear what you say. But common sense seems to be countered by vested interests. From what I gather from the BBC news, the Americans are now saying not that they are paying too much, but that the NHS is paying too little, for its drugs. Meanwhile, people's very lives are dependent, and hang in the balance, on this difference in attitude.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:24 am
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Most of the world has or aspires to some form of universal healthcare. The US is the notable exception.

The NHS has many problems but they mostly stem form regular bouts of Tory governments. Oliver Letwin Tory Grandee, ex minister of state and member of a Tory cabinet, wrote a book in 1990 "How to privatise the world" in which he extolled the the capitalist model and showed how to underfund the NHS, bring it into crisis, wait for the demands that something must be done and then privatise.

We would have a more efficient and better run NHS if the Tories never got into power.

That said, the NHS still functions well in many ways. For example the cost of drugs and treatment are significantly less to the NHS than in the US because the NHS is able to use its size to negotiated cheaper prices. Trump recently complained the UK gets its drugs and treatments cheap, when in fact America over pays.

Recent international comparisons found the NHS best value for money.

But privatisation is certainly creeping into the NHS. One obvious problem is people having to face the cost of care in their old age.

Since the 80s there has been an explosion in the value of homes. Many working class people sit in properties worth half a million of more. They haven't moved anywhere, they live in an average three bed semi detached house (less than a 1000 sq ft), but the market says the house they bought in the 80s for £60k at 3 to 4 time average salary is now worth half a million or more and is at least twelve times average salary.

The capitalist want that equity and they are going to get it.

Presently if you are old and need to be cared for it is likely you will be forced to use your home to fund your care. The lack of NHS coverage allows capital to extract wealth from the working and middle classes.

Instead of asking questions about private vs public that debate should be dead and buried, we should be seeking to eradicate the private from the NHS altogether.

This however does not mean a full commitment to centralisation. There are many different ways to manage universal health care that are public and non profit.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:56 am
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Furrowed Brow wrote:

Most of the world has or aspires to some form of universal healthcare. The US is the notable exception.

The NHS has many problems but they mostly stem form regular bouts of Tory governments. Oliver Letwin Tory Grandee, ex minister of state and member of a Tory cabinet, wrote a book in 1990 "How to privatise the world" in which he extolled the the capitalist model and showed how to underfund the NHS, bring it into crisis, wait for the demands that something must be done and then privatise.



Fortunately, the flaw in Letwin's cynical plan is that people tend to notice when the NHS is over-stressed, and demand government action, long before a terminal crisis afflicts it.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:22 am
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Furrowed Brow wrote:

Most of the world has or aspires to some form of universal healthcare. The US is the notable exception.


Can't help wondering if the reason for this is that US Americans don't actually like each other that much, let alone love their neighbour. They seem to have a culture of 'rugged individualism', in which you recognise your own selfish interests as paramount, and if you can't compete, well, let the devil take the hindmost. Perhaps this is because the US is a comparatively young nation, and maybe it's zeitgeist will shift more towards the communal virtues in due course.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:57 am
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2ndRateMind wrote:

Can't help wondering if the reason for this is that US Americans don't actually like each other that much, let alone love their neighbour. They seem to have a culture of 'rugged individualism', in which you recognise your own selfish interests as paramount, and if you can't compete, well, let the devil take the hindmost. Perhaps this is because the US is a comparatively young nation, and maybe it's zeitgeist will shift more towards the communal virtues in due course.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Americans got the New Deal in the 30s through the power of worker organisation and fear of a socialist revolution. Universal healthcare or other more socialistic policies will only come to America I suspect if workers organise and socialist organisations begin to grow. A community virtue would be helpful but not necessary. People first need to develop and relearn a class consciousness.

I am not holding my breath. More likely America goes full fascist over the next couple of decades. Not because of any inherent American traits - I make that comment on just how far to the right the American political spectrum has drifted, the size and power of the American military and just how much the US economy is dependent on this sector and perpetual war, that America is essentially a plutocracy, plus the rise of China and America losing its unchallenged dominant status.

As America's wealth and influence is squeezed I don't see her embracing greater liberalism.

Maybe I am wrong and maybe mass protests will see the US "concentration camps" shut, and maybe the next American President will turn out to be a socialist. That would be a good sign.

Given the polar choice just described I confess I cannot see the centre holding. With so much uncertainty, and with the old political consensus failing to deliver the goods, it is a time for demagogues and religion to offer comfort. A toxic brew.

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