Did Jesus really rise from the dead?

[polonius]

From several historical writings (Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius) we learn that a an itinerant preacher named Jesus was executed about 30 AD by Pontius Pilate for insurrection. (Claiming to be king of the Jews).

Starting with Paul who wasn't a witness to the crucifixion writing 25 years later, we hear that Jesus was seen alive by 500 people (before his "Ascension"). Unfortunately, Paul wrote this to the Corinthians 800 miles from Jerusalem who who would not be expected to have first hand knowledge. He did not write to any Romans.

But curiously although Jerusalem at that time had many literate Hebrews, Romans, Greeks, and others, and this fantastic story would have been widely spread, there are no written reports about it. Nor is this alleged appearance to 500 reported in any of the Gospels.

The Gospels were written by non-witnesses between 70 and 95 AD.

Is Paul's really a fictional story that caught on later? The purported ascension made verification impossible. Maybe that's why it had to be written as it was.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 119 by rikuoamero]

Yes.

So what is your objection to science observing this event, as per what you said in Post#118?

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 121 by rikuoamero]

In post 118 I talked about science being unable to study an immaterial cause of the event. In post 119 you are asking about physical effects. I think one could have made some scientific observations of Jesus' body. I don't see what science could have studied the supposed immaterial cause of the resurrection of that body.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 121 by rikuoamero]

In post 118 I talked about science being unable to study an immaterial cause of the event. In post 119 you are asking about physical effects. I think one could have made some scientific observations of Jesus' body. I don't see what science could have studied the supposed immaterial cause of the resurrection of that body.

I agree that science cannot study that which is neither matter nor energy, the 'immaterial' as you put it or the 'supernatural' as I've referred to it. By definition, if we could study it, it would no longer be in the realm of the supernatural. I appreciate you understand the divide. Too many apologists become science deniers instead and worse, try to use a perverted kind of pseudo science to attempt to support matters of faith.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 121 by rikuoamero]

In post 118 I talked about science being unable to study an immaterial cause of the event. In post 119 you are asking about physical effects. I think one could have made some scientific observations of Jesus' body. I don't see what science could have studied the supposed immaterial cause of the resurrection of that body.

One of the problems is what I call the "Casper the Ghost" syndrome which I first noticed when I was a cartoon watching grade schooler. Even then I saw a contradiction between a ghost being able to go thru walls, yet being able to pick up objects.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 121 by rikuoamero]

In post 118 I talked about science being unable to study an immaterial cause of the event. In post 119 you are asking about physical effects. I think one could have made some scientific observations of Jesus' body. I don't see what science could have studied the supposed immaterial cause of the resurrection of that body.

One of the problems is what I call the "Casper the Ghost" syndrome which I first noticed when I was a cartoon watching grade schooler. Even then I saw a contradiction between a ghost being able to go thru walls, yet being able to pick up objects.

This is lampshaded in a Stargate SG-1 episode. An actor in the show-within-the-show is told that his character becomes invisible and immaterial, and thus is able to walk through walls. He then asks the producer what stops him from falling through the floor. If I recall correctly, the producer has no answer for that.
The point of my question about whether the disciples could see the risen Jesus is to point out that this would involve all sorts of things that would (typically) fall under the rubric of science. It would involve the risen Jesus existing as a real body, standing on a physical earth, absorbing some wavelengths of light and reflecting others. The cause of the disciples seeing Jesus is understood. But somewhere along the way, Christian apologists want to insist that something supernatural happened, something that apparently cannot and would not have been observable.
What is it I hear from creationist apologists regarding evolution? I seem to recall something about no-one has observed it in action...

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 124 by Danmark]

I'm going to respond at three levels. First, I'm not sure John 20:19 (I think the verse you are referring to) speaks of Jesus walking through walls. It gives details about where they were meeting and that Jesus came and stood among them. It is possible the implication is that Jesus came out of nowhere, so to speak, but I don't think it is required from the text itself. Regardless, other passages (for instance, walking on water) seem to speak to the same kind of issue.

Second, using walking through a wall as an example, I do not see anything illogical about the situation with Jesus' resurrected body. Different than a usual body, sure, but not illogical. In what follows, I'm not making a proof from analogy. I'm making an analogy to speak of a distinction that could be at play and, therefore, why your kind of point is not necessarily relevant in coming to a belief about the whole resurrection story. In stories, ghosts are seen as less real than humans and that is why they can walk through walls. In many of his fictional works CS Lewis explores the idea that a resurrected body is more real and that is what allows for things like walking through walls. We can't walk through a wall, but to a being that is more real or has more of the supernatural as part of their nature, a brick wall is more like a sheer curtain or bank of fog. Without knowledge of fog's makeup of mist and water, it looks like you couldn't pass through. But a human certainly can because they are more solid than it. Analogically, a similar thing could be happening with Jesus' resurrected body. Now, again, this isn't said as a proof, just a distinction that may be at play. I don't see anything illogical about it, is my point. Even at the quantum level, many interpretations speak of reality working in ways we wouldn't have expected.

Third, even if one came to the conclusion that this kind of detail is logically or metaphysically impossible, it would not ultimately speak against the historical resurrection, because that case does not rely on the reliability of every detail of the Gospels. It could be explained by an overzealous author, it could have been a misunderstanding of some sort and the misunderstanding was kept alive, or some such thing like that.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to rikuoamero]

I'm just making a general, philosophical distinction here, not entering the debate over content. The critique you shared by some creationists seems to work off of the belief that evolution makes scientifically testable claims. Evolution speaks of things that we should scientifically observe, so if we do not observe them in reality, then that is reason to think the claims are false. When talking about a supernatural cause of a physical event, however, it's not scientifically observable, so a lack of scientific observation is completely expected. This, of course, does not mean there aren't other possible flaws that we could get at regarding the supernatural cause; it just wouldn't have to come through scientific means.

[John Human]

Of course the resurrection didn't happen, but it is a short path from rumour into fact.

Ancient Demon is the sole survivor of the demon companions of the House of David. Here is Ancient Demon's account of the crucifixion and revival of Jesus:
http://earthwarning.org/index.php/here-be-demons/

Ancient Demon was present at the crucifixion of Jesus, because there was no way for a demon who was charged with protection of the royal family to not be present. Ancient Demon knew that it risked being discovered, but at the time there was no reason for Ancient Demon to fear being attacked, because there was still a functioning Hebrew hierarchy in Jerusalem. Ancient Demon was not in the energy field of the prince. It was outside all energy fields during the crucifixion. Ancient Demon was able to witness by fixing itself to the cross where Jesus died. Ancient Demon heard exactly what Jesus said as Jesus was on the cross. Ancient Demon will now describe what happened.

Jesus was forced to drag the cross to the place of crucifixion. Jesus was then nailed to the cross, with nails going through his wrists and ankles, as many have supposed. This had the effect of making Jesus cry out in pain three times. The fourth time Jesus was silent. Jesus had acclimatized himself to the experience of being pierced and was able to steel himself against the piercing. After this, Jesus was unable to continue talking. He thought of saying something to his followers who were gathered around him, together with a group of soldiers. He was thinking of mustering the strength to say a final word, when a soldier came up to him and mocked him, saying, “King of the Jews!� Jesus replied indistinctly, “I am not the king anymore. James is king.� Jesus knew that, if the soldier had heard, this would have resulted in James being scrutinized and probably eliminated. So Jesus was careful not to allow the soldier (or anyone else) to hear what Jesus said.

After this, Jesus thought of saying something that was understandable to the people near him. He turned to the freedom fighter on his left and said, “You will be in the Kingdom of Heaven very shortly.� He then turned to the freedom fighter on his right and said, “You will not be in the Kingdom of Heaven until there is a King of Israel on the throne.� Jesus meant by this that both freedom fighters would be in the Kingdom of Heaven shortly, and that there would be a King on the Hebrew throne shortly. Jesus was convinced that the Hebrews would be able to throw the Romans out of Jerusalem and withstand a siege for many years, longer than the Roman army could maintain itself. This was because the Hebrews had stored wheat for many years in a location that was unknown to the Romans and was being prepared for such a siege. However, Jesus also knew that, if the Romans conquered a rebellious Jerusalem, they would level the temple so that no stone was left standing. Jesus made a comment to that effect, which was misheard and written into the Bible in a garbled way. Ancient Demon knew of this because it was told by Peter, who criticized a manuscript that later became one of the gospels. Ancient Demon knew that this manuscript was written with the help of eyewitness testimony, and Ancient Demon also know that eyewitnesses could make mistakes, as it experienced during the crucifixion of Jesus.

After Jesus talked to the freedom fighters on either side, Jesus was silent, thinking of what else he might say to his followers below. Jesus knew that, if he succumbed quickly and was taken down without having his legs broken, there was a chance that he might actually survive, because he had the ability to feign death. However, he suspected that, if he tried to do this, his body would be mutilated. Jesus knew that, because he was unable to make proper plans with someone who might bury him, he had to simply take his chances and let God make that decision, as Jesus thought to himself. Ancient Demon was able to follow the thoughts of Jesus Christ, and Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus Christ was thinking of the possibility of survival, there was indeed a chance that this might happen. Ancient Demon thought of possibly being able to help someone who would be in charge of burying Jesus, altering him to the possibility that Jesus had entered a deep trance and wasn’t actually dead.

However, Ancient Demon had no idea who would be responsible for burying Jesus, and Ancient Demon knew that, if it tried to intervene too quickly, it would have to explain why it was present and who it was, which would possibly alert the Romans to the fact that there was another living Hebrew prince in Jerusalem. Ancient Demon then observed that Jesus was thinking of speaking. Ancient Demon saw Jesus consider saying that the crucifixion was not in accord with the will of God, but then Jesus thought that maybe it actually was. So Jesus didn’t say anything, and continued thinking, through the ongoing pain.
Jesus then thought of saying that there was a new dispensation, that there would be a new kingdom of heaven for gentiles as well as Jews, as Jesus had hinted earlier. However, Jesus knew that this was not the proper place for such a message. Jesus continued thinking, deciding finally to say, “It is finished.�

This was last thing that Jesus said. In the Bible, there are words about Jesus asking God why God forsook Jesus. Jesus thought of this, but then decided that God might not have forsaken Jesus. Ancient Demon assumes that one or more of Jesus’s followers had heard Jesus’s thoughts and perhaps misheard them or didn’t hear them completely. This is a possibility, but Ancient Demon cannot be sure. Ancient Demon wants to be as precise as possible, because of the nature of what happened is a subject that many people have strong feelings about.

Ancient Demon will now describe what happened after Jesus put himself into a deep trance, as if he were dead. The Roman soldiers talked about piercing Jesus in the side, as is described in the Bible. However, the Romans decided not to do that, because it would have made a mess and they were charged with disposing of the body. The Romans then decided to make a bet about how quickly the other two freedom fighters would last. If they lasted longer than five hours, the man who bet that they would last shorter would have to break their legs, so they would suffocate. However, if they lasted shorter than five hours, the man would get their belongings, which were in a small pile to the side of the crucifixion. The man who bet that they would last less than five hours lost his bet, and he broke their legs, and they suffocated. Jesus had been on the cross, apparently dead, all this time.

After this, the three crosses were taken down and the three bodies were removed by pulling the spikes out roughly. One of the freedom fighters’ hands was almost torn off, and Ancient Demon was afraid that something similar would happen to Jesus. However, Ancient Demon decided to affect the soldier who was responsible for taking the spikes out of Jesus’s body. This soldier therefore decided to make a gesture of being respectful in order to appease the crowd of followers. The soldier took the spikes out of Jesus carefully and therefore there was little or no further damage to Jesus. However, there was continued bleeding, and Ancient Demon knew that Jesus could potentially lose too much blood. So Ancient Demon entered the body of Jesus and made a point of affecting the blood vessels to make them constrict. This had the result of ensuring that Jesus didn’t bleed to death.

After this, Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus was going to be given a proper burial, there was hope that Jesus would be able to revive himself. Ancient Demon knew that it would be able to assist Jesus, but Ancient Demon was concerned about not having enough energy. For this reason, Ancient Demon, after discovering who was in charge of taking care of the burial, left and returned to the prince. Ancient Demon explained to the prince that Jesus was not dead. The prince wanted to make an effort to help Jesus, but the prince realized that this would be probably suicidal. The prince therefore was able to give energy to Ancient Demon by focusing, much as John does, and giving Ancient Demon a full supply of energy so that Ancient Demon could go to the grave and help revive Jesus. When Ancient Demon returned to the grave, Ancient Demon discovered that Jesus had not been buried but rather transferred to a tomb that was empty. Ancient Demon thus had a much easier time taking care of Jesus. Ancient Demon entered Jesus’s body and helped heal Jesus’s wounds, by affecting the energy field around the lacerations. This had the effect of making sure that Jesus wouldn’t start bleeding when he started moving.

Ancient Demon then began to try to revive Jesus. Ancient Demon knew that it had limited time and energy, and it knew that there was little time for Jesus before he died, so Ancient Demon decided to make a gamble that one surge of energy would be sufficient to revive Jesus. Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus was unable to revive himself, he would simply die without anyone knowing that he was still alive. So Ancient Demon did what it had to do, risking running out of energy, because Ancient Demon knew that Jesus’s survival was important to the future of the Hebrews. Ancient Demon knew that, if Jesus survived but was hidden, there would be considerable support for his brother James, and this would preserve the royal family. However, if Jesus simply died, the other members of the royal family would be exterminated eventually, as happened with the family of Jude.

Because there was hidden knowledge of Jesus’s survival, there was a great outcry when Jude’s family was murdered, and this served to protect the other member of the royal family. Jude was devastated by what happened, and did not ever think of remarrying. James knew that he was a candidate for High Priest, and for this reason chose not to marry. Jerushae had his grandson, and it was Ancient Demon’s responsibility to preserve the life of Jerushae’s grandson.

[Tcg]

[Replying to rikuoamero]

Evolution speaks of things that we should scientifically observe, so if we do not observe them in reality, then that is reason to think the claims are false.

We do observe the things evolution speaks of:

Galapagos study finds that new species can develop in as little as two generations

The study comes from work conducted on Darwin's finches, which live on the Galapagos Islands in the Pacific Ocean. The remote location has enabled researchers to study the evolution of biodiversity due to natural selection.

The direct observation of the origin of this new species occurred during field work carried out over the last four decades by B. Rosemary and Peter Grant, two scientists from Princeton, on the small island of Daphne Major.

https://phys.org/news/2017-11-galapagos-species.html

There is no scientific reason to think the claims are false.

When talking about a supernatural cause of a physical event, however, it's not scientifically observable, so a lack of scientific observation is completely expected.

You are of course correct. This fact is of course quite fortunate for those who make claims they can't be expected to provide evidence of.





Tcg

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 129 by Tcg]

I was not saying that we don't observe evolution. Rikuoamero seemed to me to be saying that Christian apologists were acting hypocritically by expecting evolutionists for observable evidence, but not giving any for their own claims concerning the supernatural. I was noting a distinction about the types of claims. A claim like "the tomb is empty" could, in theory, be physically observed to be true or not. A claim like "evolution occurs" may be, in theory, physically observed to be true or not. A claim like "a non-natural (or supernatural or immaterial) agent caused event X" cannot be physically observed. That does not mean that there is no evidence for that last claim, however, because science is not the only kind of knowledge of the world.