Does prayer affect events

[Zzyzx]

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Praying for ‘God’ to intervene in events and influence / change the course of events seems to indicate assuming some or all of the following:

1. God is unaware of the situation
2. God does not care or intend to act unless prompted
3. God is willing to change ‘his’ mind if requested fervently or frequently enough
4. God can be influenced by expression of human desires
5. God determines or directs human events

Is there contradiction with claims and stories about God in Christian lore and literature?

[Jagella]

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Praying for ‘God’ to intervene in events and influence / change the course of events seems to indicate assuming some or all of the following:

1. God is unaware of the situation
2. God does not care or intend to act unless prompted
3. God is willing to change ‘his’ mind if requested fervently or frequently enough
4. God can be influenced by expression of human desires
5. God determines or directs human events

Is there contradiction with claims and stories about God in Christian lore and literature?

Every item on your list is logically correct assuming that the Christian god exists. Those items demonstrate that the the Bible god is not all-knowing and that we really don't have free will.

[dio9]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

The effect of prayer is getting people in sync with the almighty principle of creation best known as God the holy spirit or Jesus Prayer changes people not God.

[Zzyzx]

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The effect of prayer is getting people in sync with the almighty principle of creation best known as God the holy spirit or Jesus Prayer changes people not God.

Does 'God' or "the almighty principle of creation' decide whether or not to make ill people well if others pray for their recovery?

[postroad]

Considering that Jesus couldn't get God to accomplish the necessary sanctification of his followers which was the reason given for his mission and death in the world, I suggest that it doesn't work.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

Here we have the same author writing regarding a church conflict in which his rival has rejected his authority.

3 John 9-11 New International Version (NIV)

9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not welcome us. 10 So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church. This author seems to also be equating seeing God to his own authority given through Jesus.

11 Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.


John 20:21-23 New International Version (NIV)

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.� 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.�

Also this author indicates that whatever unity may have existed it is now hopelessly in schism.

New International Version (NIV)

Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

[Jagella]

The effect of prayer is getting people in sync with the almighty principle of creation best known as God the holy spirit or Jesus Prayer changes people not God.

In that case prayer isn't useful regarding the request(s) because it won't change the target-god's plans.

But yes, prayer changes people, or at least it changed me. Prayer made me realize that it's useless to petition a god who either doesn't exist or doesn't want to look like it exists.

[Filthy Tugboat]

[Replying to post 4 by Zzyzx]

If they get well then He clearly must have.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]


The results of one study showed that intercessory prayer made no difference. However, telling people they were being prayed for had an impact, a negative one.

The largest study to date on the so-called healing powers of prayer, conducted by researchers at Harvard Medical School, found that intercessory prayer actually had a negative impact on cardiac patients. The study, released in March 2006, was conducted by spirituality guru, Dr. Herbert Benson.

There were three random groups: some received prayers but were not informed; some got no prayers and were not informed; others got prayed for and were told so. The latter group had a significantly worse complication rate than the other two groups, whose complication rates of 52% were virtually identical. The complication rate of the group knowing it was prayed for was 59%.

https://ffrf.org/outreach/item/12869-bi ... o-patients

The moral to this story is that if you know someone who is seriously ill, don't tell them you'll be praying for them. You can pray if you want, it won't make any difference unless you make the mistake of telling the person you're praying for them. If you do that, the odds are that their complications will be worse.





Tcg

[ytrewq]

As per the reply by TCG, I have sourced and read a number of apparently professionally conducted studies to determine if praying had any effect. The result in every case was that no benefit was found statistically over and above what would be expected from chance alone. The studies were all to do with praying for sick people, and of course by chance alone a significant proportion of people make a full recovery anyway, so a proper statistical analysis is necessary.

I know I harp on about this but I don't even need to read such studies to know with a high level of confidence that praying does not work, because if it did, I am completely certain that curious scientists would have found out by now, and thousands of scientists and billions of dollars would be employed to find out why, and we would know about it in a big way. But others with less scientific experience can seek the studies, and discover that praying has been extensively studied and found not to be effective.

TCG's study that if the person knows that you are praying for them then they fare worse is interesting. I would need to know the methodology in detail. It may be the case, for example, that there is a correlation between the seriousness of illness, and the probability that those praying will tell the patient that they they are praying for him/her.

Anyway, Zzyzx, the answer to your question is basically that praying does not work, so it seems moot to discuss whether it would be logical for a God to answer prayers.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 9 by ytrewq]

As per the reply by TCG, I have sourced and read a number of apparently professionally conducted studies to determine if praying had any effect. The result in every case was that no benefit was found statistically over and above what would be expected from chance alone. The studies were all to do with praying for sick people, and of course by chance alone a significant proportion of people make a full recovery anyway, so a proper statistical analysis is necessary.

Doing a study regarding prayer is de facto impossible. How do you control for generalised prayers from people asking God to say cure all illness, or to house all the homeless people? When I was a kid, I prayed for things like that, things that benefited humanity as a whole.