[Replying to post 241 by Mithrae
Jagella wrote:I suppose I'm different and possibly in the minority in that I do not want any person killed who poses no danger to me.
William wrote:I think your basic mistake here is that you appear to be defining yourself as you presently are and conflating it with being the exact same person you THINK you would be in another time and space.
The best you could do is to HOPE you would be the same person. but the reality is you live in a time where the social system is already set up and that is what helped shape you to think of your self as the person you think of as your self NOW.
There's a touch of irony here, in that I suspect the authors of the Numbers story may have been assuming something similar to Jesus' comment that those faithful in little will be faithful in much while those unfaithful in little will be unfaithful in much.
Perhaps. It may or may not be a good device for use of ascertaining reliability, especially when there is a consistency of behavior in relation to any individual.
We are not told are we, that the man working on the Sabbath did so consistently thus adding to the evidence that he was a threat to the Tribe?
This does happen a lot with biblical stories narrated as they are - to give a sense of urgency and impress upon the listener/reader that if one wishes to be a member of the Tribe/Group/Sect/Cult/etc...one has to abide by the rules the Tribe insist upon or one will suffer the consequences of breaking those rules.
Given that life on Earth is a harsh environment, often violence is seen as the best deterrent.
As a child I lived in a household where violence was used as a deterrent and in a neighborhood where violence was used as a deterrent and I was the least violent personality I knew - and in that spent much time in my own wee corner of life - in my 'own little world' daydreaming about another world which would be more suitable for the likes of me as that child.
I have spent most of my life learning that daydreaming that reality could be made different, did not change reality very much
. It did insulate me from having to deal with the human drama in those moments where it wasn't in my face distracting me from my daydreams about desiring more appropriate (to my personality) alternatives.
In that, I can clearly empathize with what Jagella is writing about when speaking of what he knows about himself in relation to the world which is not so much delivering the things he may feel it should or could be delivering in relation to the kind of personality he self identifies as being.
What's that popular saying? "The world owes you nothing."?
Yet we are mostly all generically predisposed to inject our ideas into said world for the purpose of trying at least to make that world more accommodating to our personal needs, wants, desires, preferences, hopes, wishes, dreams, etc...
This equates to identifying the "monster(s)" which are set against us achieving said purposes in relation to said personal needs etc.
Hence, the non-Theist against Theist/Theist against non-Theist human drama - centuries old fighting dynamic.
Add to this the present day Theists who tend toward the idea that "The Law (of the Tribe) is The Law" and if such a Law as "Stoning those who won't obey the Law" and "Not working on the Sabbath" were still current or reintroduced to be current, those Theists would support such laws without hesitation.
Thus, folk who feel that this is dangerous (a monster) to their preference, [strike]do[/strike] would have reason for concern.
Perhaps a poll could be taken, but a quick scan of the thread posts indicate to me that most Members who have responded to the OPQ, agree that such Laws the ancient Cultures had invoked in order to keep their Tribes in line, have evidently moved on with the times and allowed those Laws to be non-applicable in more modern times due largely to the fact that the Laws have served their purpose and the Tribes have adapted...grown up...etc...
To me that is seen as kind of a good sign. Something I can place my daydreaming wishful thinking hopefulness in.
So while we can all ascertain to some degree, the 'monster' in others whom we feel have a position in opposition to our own, and are therefore - in reality - dangerous to us, we need to keep an even keel in relation to that type of ascertaining.
Are we out to eradicate the monster, or tame it?
Because the monster will know which is which and respond accordingly.
Through the eyes of the ancient Tribe, the 'monster' was the one outwardly defiant and happy to break the Tribes Law, and for the one who was punished by that law, the Tribe was the 'monster'.
The two monsters simply wouldn't exist in the same place at the same time. Such is the environment we all exist in. It is monstrous.
I could list, as an example, all those Christian Theists on this board to whom I share a pathway connection with in relation to Theist beliefs as well as identify where the pathway splits and the connection is lost.
The same applies to non-theists and agnostic Members - where the pathways converge and connection is gained, and where they split and connection is lost.
the overall dynamic of this Message Board as a whole and its participating Members can be realistically viewed as an accurate example of a micro reality to the macro reality in a mirroring sense, THEN
I can shift my position to accommodate that reality.
For me that would mean simple accepting that there is going to be no same-page position agreed upon between the different 'monsters' that make up the world of the Theists vs non-Theist/non-Theists vs Theist warfare, and my daydreams of a better world that I can be completely comfortable with
are a waste of hope, and I can focus my attention elsewhere.
Taking their own views as a litmus test for what they imagine 'they' as essentially a different person in a different era would be like, they nevertheless brutally attack any notion of the Sabbath being used as a considerably less speculative litmus test for the Israelites to deal with criminals before they rob or rape or kill someone.
"The Tribe has spoken"
Still, I empathize with what Jagella and others who have expressed their concerns.
When I read what Jagella wrote;
I tend to "buck the system" preferring my own way of thought
I'm different and possibly in the minority in that I do not want any person killed who poses no danger to me.
I agree that is also my position and our pathway merges on that point but separates where the conflation between past and present occur, largely because I recognize that if not for all the past, my present ability to lean toward the understanding that "I am basically a decent person even that I buck the system where I see the system is not in support of assisting me in my dreams of a better world", and "I do not want to see people killed in order for my dream-world to have any chance of becoming a reality."
I can hold this position BECAUSE of the past which shaped the present AND because of those who were unfortunate victims of all dark ancient Tribal Laws - not just
the ones reported in the tribal accounts of Israel, as presented in their scripts.
I am obligated in that regard, to at least make an effort to find ways of dealing with the "Dragons" whom may want to destroy my hopes and dreams of a better world.