"God is goodness"

[Zzyzx]

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In one of the threads someone made the claim:

God is goodness.

When asked for substantiation, the response was:

For me to explain all the points behind my reasoning for that belief would derail this thread in many different directions.

Therefore, this thread is created to ask for substantiation of the claim.

[jgh7]

I’ve been busy today and don’t have much time right now, but I’d like to write this just to at least get it out.

I said God is goodness. Others may respond to this thread as if it is apologetics, but I’m responding as if this is in the philosophy section. To me, “God is goodness� means that objective morality can only exist with God. God is the only hope for goodness as He is the only hope for objective morality. And I am arguing solely from the most basic philosophical viewpoint of God or Godlike being. I am not arguing for any specific religion. So now I will lay out that argument.

1. Objective morality means there’s rules for right and wrong that apply to every single human who has existed, is existing, and will exist. If there exists a human who objective morality does not apply to, then this morality is no longer objective.

2. For objective morality to apply to someone, there must be a reason for them to follow it. Ultimately, they must be better off by following it (being good) and worse off by not following it (being evil).

3. There have existed people who have been evil and have not been worse off for being evil. There have existed people who have been good and have been worse off for being good.

example for 3) An evil king gets enjoyment out of torturing his citizens. He lives a comfortable life and dies peacefully. Likewise, a good citizen tried to help some others escape. He was caught and was tortured worse than the others and died suffering. This king who was greatly evil was better off living his life than the good citizen. (Something like this is bound to have happened in the course of human history)

4. If this life is all there is, then objective morality can’t exist, because numerous people have been better off for being morally evil and numerous people have been worse off for being morally good. Therefore, an afterlife is necessary to correct this.

5. In an afterlife, there must be a way for there to be universal accountability. Good people should be better off for being good and evil people should be worse off for being evil.

6. The only way this could be done is with a Being who knows every single moral action that has taken place and is himself completely morally perfect. He is also powerful to where others cannot overtake or resist Him. He can then therefore properly distribute justice that was not distributed in the previous life. This being for all intents and purposes can be called God.

That’s my argument. I’ve had to rush through it, so sorry if it is rough around the edges.

[Zzyzx]

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1. Objective morality means there’s rules for right and wrong that apply to every single human who has existed, is existing, and will exist. If there exists a human who objective morality does not apply to, then this morality is no longer objective.

4. If this life is all there is, then objective morality can’t exist, because numerous people have been better off for being morally evil and numerous people have been worse off for being morally good. Therefore, an afterlife is necessary to correct this.

Agreed, at least theoretically.

Unfortunately, neither objective morality nor afterlife has been shown to be anything other than theoretical / hypothetical (or wishful thinking, religious propaganda, opinion, etc)

[Guy Threepwood]

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In one of the threads someone made the claim:

God is goodness.

When asked for substantiation, the response was:

For me to explain all the points behind my reasoning for that belief would derail this thread in many different directions.

Therefore, this thread is created to ask for substantiation of the claim.

I agree with the initial response, it's not something you can fully cover in a post or two!

having said that, I think it can be boiled down something like this:

Why are we here, what is the ultimate purpose of our existence, everything you see around you?

To answer that question: ask this one; what is the greatest motivation for anything?

[Zzyzx]

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Why are we here, what is the ultimate purpose of our existence, everything you see around you?

Has it been established that there is an 'ultimate purpose for our existence'? Unless / until that has been established, the question of 'why' is meaningless (or hypothetical)

Purpose necessitates intent or plan; and therefore a intending or planning agent. Such agent has not been shown to exist outside imagination.

[2FollowHim]

[Replying to post 23 by Guy Threepwood]

Really great points.

Like your point about requiring afterlife.

Seems a big waste of time, this earth, everything going on, 'if that's all there is'.
Jesus indicated otherwise, certainly resonated with me, others.

My experience is God improves the lives of those that come close wanting God.
Also, imagine if we focused more on this in our lives?

I know I can improve in this.
But morals, while a backbone to life may not supply purpose, meaning.

[1213]

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In one of the threads someone made the claim:

God is goodness.

When asked for substantiation, the response was:
....

I think that depends on what is meant with “goodness�. In Biblical point of view God is the source of all good. I think that is why He can be called also goodness.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 23 by Guy Threepwood]

Really great points.

Like your point about requiring afterlife.

If God were truly goodness, he wouldn't need a mulligan to get things right. People would get their just rewards, good or bad, here and now.

Seems a big waste of time, this earth, everything going on, 'if that's all there is'.

More evidence that God isn't goodness. If he were, there'd be no reason to make humans suffer through an experience that could be mistaken as a big waste of time.

Jesus indicated otherwise, certainly resonated with me, others.

Sure, but only because God didn't get it right the first time.

My experience is God improves the lives of those that come close wanting God.
Also, imagine if we focused more on this in our lives?

Once again, if this were true, life wouldn't fell like a big waste of time.

I know I can improve in this.
But morals, while a backbone to life may not supply purpose, meaning.

I'm not sure exactly what point your making here. Are you stating that God needs to be something other than goodness?





Tcg

[Guy Threepwood]

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Why are we here, what is the ultimate purpose of our existence, everything you see around you?

Has it been established that there is an 'ultimate purpose for our existence'? Unless / until that has been established, the question of 'why' is meaningless (or hypothetical)

Purpose necessitates intent or plan; and therefore a intending or planning agent. Such agent has not been shown to exist outside imagination.

Well it was in response to why God is (would be) 'goodness' - love is the greatest motivation for anything.

But purpose, plan, intent - yes, things that can only be found in a conscious mind.

For me, like most, I think we see many fingerprints of exactly this, and so I feel it is pretty well established that intelligent agency is the least improbable explanation... but obviously it's up for debate, which is fine- that's what we're here for!

[Guy Threepwood]

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1. Objective morality means there’s rules for right and wrong that apply to every single human who has existed, is existing, and will exist. If there exists a human who objective morality does not apply to, then this morality is no longer objective.

4. If this life is all there is, then objective morality can’t exist, because numerous people have been better off for being morally evil and numerous people have been worse off for being morally good. Therefore, an afterlife is necessary to correct this.

Agreed, at least theoretically.

Unfortunately, []afterlife has been shown to be anything other than theoretical / hypothetical (or wishful thinking, religious propaganda, opinion, etc)

We strive to preserve our creations, memories, experiences, lessons learned to the extent we can, so that our efforts are not in vain

Why do you think God would choose to discard them? Why would that be a logical default assumption?

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

For me to explain all the points behind my reasoning for that belief would derail this thread in many different directions.

Therefore, this thread is created to ask for substantiation of the claim.

When it comes to such requests for things to do with good and evil, we each possess our own opinions, and many of those interlace with others, even - I have noticed - with non-theists and theists.

So substantiation is a relative thing as it is a subjective thing.

For me personally I do not see things as good or evil in any sustainable manner. I might regard illness as a bad thing to experience, but I wouldn't call it evil on account of that. Same with health. Not a bad thing to experience, but I wouldn't call it good, but rather preferable to illness.

Generally my relationship with GOD isn't about good and evil, but about being and purpose.
I see the environment I am experiencing as necessary to being and purpose so there is little point in complicating that by adding notions of good and evil, because these tend to act as stumbling blocks to human progressiveness and are unnecessary for that.

I see the whole as an expression of GOD, and others might argue that this means such an idea of GOD must therefore be evil. While I understand the sentiment, to think along such lines is to include myself a participant in evil, and for me it is similar to thinking sex is dirty and therefore believing my human form - as a product of sexuality - is therefore somehow 'dirty'...and by association, so am I and everyone else.