Regarding the existence of Jesus

[Zzyzx]

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Take your choice. It is a matter of opinion.

Feel free to cite evidence to support your choice.

[Jagella]

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Take your choice. It is a matter of opinion.

Feel free to cite evidence to support your choice.

Richard Carrier, Robert Price, and Raphael Lataster all hold degrees in relevant studies, and all have concluded that Jesus is probably a myth.

As for me, I'm not sure whether Jesus existed or not. All of the evidence for Jesus is in the form of documents, and such evidence suggests his historicity is not clear. Figures we consider myth, like King Arthur, have much the same evidence going for them. It seems that Jesus has privileged status being considered historical among the gods we think are mythical.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]


Number three resonates most with me, although I must admit I'm a bit apathetic about this issue. I've never seen any evidence that would support the claims that Jesus performed the miracles attributed to him. Given that, whether Jesus was an actual man or a group of men these mythologies were built upon doesn't matter much to me. It is certainly also possible he didn't exist as a man at all, but was pure myth.


This may be outside the scope of your poll, but I find it interesting to note that some Christians, perhaps not historians though, would agree with my assessment. Years ago I was involved with a Quaker Meeting and some of the members spoke of the Jesus of history and the Jesus of faith. They recognized that the stories of Jesus weren't historical, but still found inspiration in the mythology of Jesus.


Like me, they didn't care much whether Jesus was an historical person or not. I personal don't share their inspiration, but do appreciate their honest evaluation of the evidence or rather lack of evidence.




Tcg

[bjs]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I just want to throw in that that poll, as stated, is not a matter of opinion. The stated options were about the number of historians who think a certain way about Jesus. Very few historians, Christian or non-Christians, believe that Jesus did not exist.




I am using the dictionary definition of historian, which is: An expert in or student of history, especially that of a particular period, geographical region, or social phenomenon.

If by “historian� you mean: internet poster who judges the truth of something by how he or she feels about the topic, then sure, lots of “historians� say that there is not enough evidence say that Jesus existed.

[wiploc]

Hmm. Which true statement should I pick?

[Zzyzx]

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I just want to throw in that that poll, as stated, is not a matter of opinion.

Each of us is entitled to an opinion -- including historians, theologians, scholars (Christian and Non-Christian -- professional and non-professional). Individual opinion is what the poll asks for.

[Divine Insight]

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Take your choice. It is a matter of opinion.

Feel free to cite evidence to support your choice.

Well, if it's a matter of opinion be prepared because I'm about to give mine.

The problem I have with this question is that I simply must ask a question in return before I can reply.

And my question is simply, "Which Jesus are you asking about?"

In other words, what do you even mean by "Jesus"?

If you are referring to the character described by the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, or John, or the writings of Paul, then I would say that the Jesus they describe never existed as they claim to have described him.

However, if you are asking whether some guy named Jesus might have actually lived, argued with the religious leaders of his culture, and might have potentially been crucified on charges of blaspheme thus sparking rumors and superstitions that eventually lead to the writings of the Gospel Rumors, then I would say that I believe with a fairly high level of confidence that there was indeed an individual that served as fodder for the Christian Gossip that later became the "Gospels".

Do I believe that this man named Jesus was the virgin born Son of God? Absolutely not.

Do I believe that this man actually died and was miraculously risen by a God who would actually plan out such a disgusting drama? Absolutely not.

Do I believe that a God worthy of respect would have anything at all to do with such an ignorant plan? Absolutely not.

If there was a God behind the stories told in the Gospel Rumors there is absolutely no way that I would want to have anything to do with him. If he is my creator, then all I can say is that I am ashamed to have been created by such an ignorant God.

And I make no apologies for my opinion on this. If such a God exists I would tell him straight to his face that he's an ignorant pig. And if he wants to damn me into eternal damnation for having told the truth of my opinion then so be it. All he will have done at the point is prove me right. As well as proving that he has no respect for truth at all.

The God of the Christian Gospels cannot be true because in order to be true the God they describe would necessarily be the epitome of ignorance. And that would be an oxymoron. So the Jesus described in the Gospels never existed.

[Divine Insight]

By the way, regarding the poll. I would say that all 5 of the choices are true, at least in the sense of how people think.

#1 is certainly true that many religious people like to believe that they KNOW Jesus is real. Of course that doesn't make it true that they actually known anything. But there are certainly many religious people who have convinced themselves to take this position. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant to them apparently.

As far as I can see #'s 2 thru 5 are all true. Not necessarily true for me personally, but certainly true for the other people who may qualify for those groups.

[marco]

Richard Carrier, Robert Price, and Raphael Lataster all hold degrees in relevant studies, and all have concluded that Jesus is probably a myth.

How wonderful it would be if the possession of a degree, or many, conferred infallibility on us. Very often the notion that we have reached the pinnacle of intellectual prowess is a shortcut to error.

But the word "probably" is a pretty safe employment since it tells us nothing. The importance of Jesus is the power generated by his followers. The nomadic trader Muhammad has infused our modern society with a billion bows, and Muhammad undoubtedly lived. The Vatican may have been built on a rumour, but it matters little. Jesus is pretty much alive today in the minds of millions. And that counts.

[polonius]

Reports of Jesus existence can be found in the writings of the Roman historians Tacitus, Suetonius, and Josephus.

Of course, they don't claim that he was divine, only a religious leader of some sort.