Was Jesus brought into existence, or was he eternal?

[jgh7]

In a bit of a spinoff from the typical trinitarian debates, I wanted to focus on one single aspect of Jesus.

Did the Father bring Jesus into existence (as in the Father created Jesus)? Or did Jesus exist ever since the beginning alongside the Father (making Jesus eternal/timeless)?

Can Jesus still receive the qualification of God, if He was created? Conversely, can He still be denied the qualification of God, if He is eternal?

[JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION Was the spirit person called in the bible THE WORD, a created being?

ANSWER Yes, Jesus' prehuman existence had a beginning, so by definition there was a time when Jesus as a person, did not exist. The bible indicates that Jesus is indeed a created being that came into existence. Colossians speaks of Jesus being the result of God's first act off creation and Micah speaks of Jesus as having originated (something impossible if he had no beginning). Revelation chapter 3 verse 14 which, refering to Jesus reads in the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible, that he (Jesus) is "the beginning of the creation of God"

COLOSSIANS 1:15 - Douay-Rheims Bible

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

For an in depth discussion of the greek rendered "firstborn " (prototokos) see link below
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 18#p867218

MICAH 5:2 - Catholic Jerusalem Bible

"But you (Bethlehem) Ephrathah, the least of the clans of Judah, from you will come for me a future ruler of Israel whose origins [yatsa] **go back to the distant past, to the days of old."
https://www.bibliacatolica.com.br/new-j ... e/micah/5/

**The Hebrew word YATSA translated into the English "origins" has a wide variety of meanings but by far the majority of bible scholars render it as "origin" (see point [g] in the word study) at Micah 5:2

• Word study
  https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3318.htm
  Various translations
  https://biblehub.com/micah/5-2.htm

Logically the prophecy above in Micah was not refering to the Messiahs birth as a human because he refered to it being "the distant past". When the Messiah appeared his birth was easily within living memory, indeed Jesus mother was reportedly still alive during his earthly ministry. The prophecy must have been refering to the Messiahs "origins" actually being far in the distant past, long before he was born as a human (compare John 8:58). In short, even if Jesus' origins were long before the creation of the universe, they are still origins which means he had a beginning.

CONCLUSION Scripturally speaking, the spirit being identified as THE WORD (later born as the human son of God, Jesus) has not always existed. Only Almighty God YHWHThe Father had no beginning (or origins), his son was created.

JW



RELATED POSTS

Scriptural reasons to conclude Jesus is not Almighty God
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p751572

Did Origen really speak of The WORD being a created being ("a creature")?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p824161

Further reading : Who is Jesus Christ?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005681

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

I don't think the bible can fully answer that. John seems sure of it, but never claims it fully. Either way, I don't think it matters. If Yeshua was fully God or full of God, are just interesting things to debate. Jesus brought the message of God regardless. That is the point of his life. We are called to repent, forgive(so that we are) and follow God's rules. Following God's rules won't "save" us, but Christ's sacrifice can. Should we then forget the rules? Paul answers this several times. "heavens no!"

[JJ50]

In my opinion Jesus was the result of Mary having sexual intercourse with Joseph or another human male. The virgin birth garbage was made up to cover the fact that Mary wasn't actually married when she conceived him, which would have been considered shameful back then.

[Bust Nak]

In my opinion Jesus was the result of Mary having sexual intercourse with Joseph or another human male. The virgin birth garbage was made up to cover the fact that Mary wasn't actually married when she conceived him, which would have been considered shameful back then.

Moderator Comment

A reminder: In this sub forum, the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. The Bible says virgin birth and that's the narrative we go with.

Please review the Rules.


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[ttruscott]

In a bit of a spinoff from the typical trinitarian debates, I wanted to focus on one single aspect of Jesus.

Did the Father bring Jesus into existence (as in the Father created Jesus)? Or did Jesus exist ever since the beginning alongside the Father (making Jesus eternal/timeless)?

Can Jesus still receive the qualification of God, if He was created? Conversely, can He still be denied the qualification of God, if He is eternal?

Romans 1 tells us that everyone HAS CLEARLY SEEN the truth of GOD, HIS Divinity and power YET those under HIS wrath repress that memory of the proof from their conscious minds because they love their sins more.

Christians are told that we live by faith, not sight or proof. Therefore there will be no proof given for the doctrines of any Church and if it is, it will be repressed by the sinful Church.

The story of creation is one of separation, the separation of the elect from the non-elect by the judgement against the non-elect and, after some of the elect chose to be sinners postponing the judgement as per the parable of the sinful good seed in Matt 13, the separation of the sinful elect their sins and from their loved ones who are non-elect whom they idolize over GOD's call for judgment.

All of this separation is based upon faith, that is the essence of our hope. There is no proof but we hope anyway, holding our ignorance and need for proof in abeyance for the time being. The elect once they are reborn have a true faith and hope in the truth while those who are not reborn have a false hope lost to sin.

This situation forms the basis for the warning we should continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling even while we trust that it is GOD that is working within us to to act on behalf of His good pleasure.

All this adds up to the fact that we must follow the voice of Christ as we hear it, not any Church or set of doctrines but the Spirit Himself and to learn to love as we can, choosing to serve humbly in love rather than indulging in the flesh while we are being trained in righteousness by GOD's painful disciplines for our wrong choices.

[Tcg]

Romans 1 tells us that everyone HAS CLEARLY SEEN the truth of GOD, HIS Divinity and power YET those under HIS wrath repress that memory of the proof from their conscious minds because they love their sins more.

The word "memory" doesn't appear in this chapter of Romans. Given that, it doesn't support your claim that it teaches a repression of memory.




Tcg

[polonius]

In this sub forum, the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. The Bible says virgin birth and that's the narrative we go with.

RESPONSE: Actually, a correct translation of Isaiah 7: 14 does NOT say a virgin birth. It says born of a young woman.

Check a modern translation such as the NRSV ( World Council of Churches) or the New American Bible which have corrected this error.

The Septuagint mistranslated "almah" (a young woman) as "parthanos" or virgin.

[polonius]

In this sub forum, the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. The Bible says virgin birth and that's the narrative we go with.

RESPONSE: Actually, a correct translation of Isaiah 7: 14 does NOT say a virgin birth. It says born of a young woman.

Check a modern translation such as the NRSV ( World Council of Churches) or the New American Bible which have corrected this error.

The Septuagint mistranslated "almah" (a young woman) as "parthanos" or virgin.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

Did the Father bring Jesus into existence (as in the Father created Jesus)? Or did Jesus exist ever since the beginning alongside the Father (making Jesus eternal/timeless)?

The Father brought Jesus into existence at the appointed time as the Messiah to fulfil His eternal purpose and what He said in Genesis 3:15.