Are Christians atheists?

[Jagella]

As we all should know, one of the biggest criticisms of Christianity is that many Christians are hypocrites. If we understand "Christian" as any person who claims to have accepted Jesus as Lord, then there is obviously good reason to believe that many if not most Christians don't practice what they preach. For example, in Matthew 19:21 Jesus counsels a "rich young man" on how that man can attain eternal life:

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.�

Needless to say, very few Christians sell all their possessions and give the money to the poor to follow Christ. If Christians really believe in the Christian god, then it is very strange that they disobey that god. It seems reasonable to me that if a person really believes that Christ is the only way to live forever in paradise, then that person would be eager to do what Christ is quoted as commanding. Yet we see widespread disobedience of Christ's injunctions to deny earthly treasure and "lay up treasure in heaven."

Question for Debate: Do the actions of Christians speak more loudly than their words demonstrating that they don't really believe in any gods but only hope that the Christian god exists?

[ElCodeMonkey]

I definitely think most Christians are simply cultural Christians. They claim to believe but it really doesn't affect their day to day. When I was a Christian, I truly believed and took it to heart. I did sell everything. There are other people who truly believe, but they simply interpret things differently. I think it's because they merge what they see truly happening on Earth and decide the understanding must not be entirely accurate at face value and thus must mean something else. The story you quoted is easy to understand as Jesus explaining how we need a sacrifice because it's otherwise impossible to enter heaven. It shows how the man falsely believed he was not a sinner, but since we all truly are, we must repent and accept a sacrifice, etc. There's also room for error even though we believe. I believe kindness is still a better way to live life and yet many times I am not kind. So hypocritical of me. And yet, it's just a mistake and I do still truly believe it's better to be kind. So it's really hard to determine who truly believes and who truly does not.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

While I disagree with the application of the "rich young ruler" story, I do agree with the general point that one's actions (more tested by a general overview like ElCodeMonkey seems to be saying) are a better judge of what Christians (or anyone else) really believes about reality. One good judge of what you really follow involves what you get really upset about, for instance, when you are faced with that being taken away from you.

[Jagella]

While I disagree with the application of the "rich young ruler" story, I do agree with the general point that one's actions (more tested by a general overview like ElCodeMonkey seems to be saying) are a better judge of what Christians (or anyone else) really believes about reality. One good judge of what you really follow involves what you get really upset about, for instance, when you are faced with that being taken away from you.

Yes. Christians like all other people need or at least think they need their possessions. Heaven, by contrast, is much less assured, and the logical thing to do is to stick with what you know you have and what you know to be true. If one can hope for eternity in heaven, then one can hope for a Christ who really didn't mean what he said about giving everything away to the poor. That way you "can have all this and heaven too!"

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

Question for Debate: Do the actions of Christians speak more loudly than their words demonstrating that they don't really believe in any gods but only hope that the Christian god exists?

Counter question to this which needs to be answered before one can get to the bones of the first question.

Counter Question: Are 'Atheists' those who don't really believe in any gods?

The question has to be asked because many non-theists members on this message board consistently argue that is NOT the case at all.

If people are confused as to 'what makes an atheist an 'atheist' due to some atheists saying one thing while other atheists say another thing, the OP question cannot be answered satisfactorily.

What I personally would think to expect to see from atheists who do not agree with the OP definition of what an atheist is, is that they would say so, herein.

[Jagella]

I definitely think most Christians are simply cultural Christians. They claim to believe but it really doesn't affect their day to day.

It's human nature to yak a lot and do a little. Talk is easy, but to actually back up that talk with real action is another matter. Christians, being human, are no different in this regard. They'll bombard you with talk, but substance and action are most often not forthcoming.

When I was a Christian, I truly believed and took it to heart. I did sell everything.

Everything? Even your underwear?

There are other people who truly believe, but they simply interpret things differently. I think it's because they merge what they see truly happening on Earth and decide the understanding must not be entirely accurate at face value and thus must mean something else.

When I was a Christian I was shocked when I read the gospel tale and realized both how demanding it really is and how few bother to do it.

The story you quoted is easy to understand as Jesus explaining how we need a sacrifice because it's otherwise impossible to enter heaven. It shows how the man falsely believed he was not a sinner, but since we all truly are, we must repent and accept a sacrifice, etc.

I might agree with this interpretation except that Matthew 19:21 says nothing about a sacrifice and nothing about getting into heaven being impossible via works! Jesus is very explicit here that getting to heaven is the result of what you do. You may be alluding to passages like 2 Timothy 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:5 which emphasize faith in the role of salvation rather than works.

In any case, wrong or not, your interpretation Matthew 19:21 is very popular. It gets the Christian off the hook not needing to go through the terrible ordeal of poverty.

There's also room for error even though we believe. I believe kindness is still a better way to live life and yet many times I am not kind. So hypocritical of me. And yet, it's just a mistake and I do still truly believe it's better to be kind. So it's really hard to determine who truly believes and who truly does not.

How can cruelty be a mistake when you know it's against what you believe Christ preached? If you really believe he can cast you into hell, then being cruel is a very strange mistake!

[Jagella]

If people are confused as to 'what makes an atheist an 'atheist' due to some atheists saying one thing while other atheists say another thing, the OP question cannot be answered satisfactorily.

The question for debate does not mention the word "atheists."

Question for Debate: Do the actions of Christians speak more loudly than their words demonstrating that they don't really believe in any gods but only hope that the Christian god exists?

It asks if Christians don't really believe in any gods. So any confusion over what is meant by the word "atheist" is moot. It should be clear that an atheist is a person who doesn't believe in any gods.

Please answer the question for debate.

[Zzyzx]

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Although Christians do not meet the definition of Atheist (without belief in gods), one might question a claimed belief in the Bible God.

If a person truly believed that a god had set forth rules and judged people ‘after they die’ to determine their 'eternal fate', it wold seem as though the believer would be VERY careful to obey with no exceptions.

Of course, one commonly used ‘out’ is to claim that only ‘faith’ or ‘belief’ is required for ‘salvation’ and/or that ‘sins are forgiven’ upon request. Both provide a way for people to do whatever they choose provided they BELIEVE and ask forgiveness.

Who makes up this stuff?

[Divine Insight]

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Although Christians do not meet the definition of Atheist (without belief in gods), one might question a claimed belief in the Bible God.

It has been my observation that Christians do not believe in the Biblical God. What they appear to believe in is a make-believe Jesus that they have personally created in their own mind based on what they would like to believe Jesus was like, and what they would like to believe Jesus taught and stood for.

And the fact is that you would be extremely hard-pressed to find two Christians who actually believe in the same Jesus. They have all created their own personal Jesus.

Many modern Christians even openly confess that they are having a "personal walk with Jesus". What this means is that they basically reject what the Bible and/or any churches have to say about Jesus and instead they have decided to make up their own personal Jesus. A Jesus who agrees with their own personal values.

That's the Jesus they believe in. It really has little, if anything, to do with the Bible.

Christians see Jesus as someone who supports their moral values. And this is why they can stand "behind" him so strongly. He's obviously on their side. Jesus ultimately represents a verification that their moral values are "Jesus Approved".

After all, how could Jesus not approve of their moral values? They claim to be standing by him 100%. And surely he couldn't disagree with their moral values. How could that possibly happen? From their perspective their moral values are his moral values. There is no conflict. For Jesus to turn on them is just unthinkable in their mind. Surely he's going to agree with their moral values?

That's the Jesus they believe in.

After all, we even see this on these forums. We see believers saying things like they follow Jesus (not the Bible, not the churches) just the Jesus that they have a personal relationship with. In other words, the Jesus that agrees with their moral values. Period amen.

After all, how could they possibly claim to disagree with the moral values of Jesus? And this means that Jesus must then agree with their moral values, because there cannot be a conflict of moral values between them and Jesus.

That's the psychology behind that.

If I claim to be in agreement with the moral values of Jesus, then that's what must be true. Nothing else could possibly be true at that point.

[Jagella]

Although Christians do not meet the definition of Atheist (without belief in gods), one might question a claimed belief in the Bible God.

If Christians do believe in a god, then like you say that god might not be the Bible god. They may make up their own god(s) that allow them greater freedom. In fact, one of the members here has her own "custom Christ" who can do no wrong regardless of what the Bible says.

If a person truly believed that a god had set forth rules and judged people ‘after they die’ to determine their 'eternal fate', it wold seem as though the believer would be VERY careful to obey with no exceptions.

What you've posted here is my main point. It just doesn't make sense for people to act one way and preach the other way if they really believe what they preach. It seems to me that Christians want to believe their doctrines rather than really believe those doctrines.

Of course, one commonly used ‘out’ is to claim that only ‘faith’ or ‘belief’ is required for ‘salvation’ and/or that ‘sins are forgiven’ upon request. Both provide a way for people to do whatever they choose provided they BELIEVE and ask forgiveness.

The "salvation by faith" doctrine was instituted because people know that what Jesus commanded is almost impossible to obey. The injunctions attributed to Christ are rendered null and void by this faith dogma.