Debate with a scientist

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
John Human
Scholar
Posts: 354
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:49 pm
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 6 times

Debate with a scientist

Post #1

Post by John Human »

Back in December and January, I had a debate with a scientist at a forum for medieval genealogists, where people routinely ridicule the thought of directly communicating with deceased ancestors. (For an explanation of communicating with ancestors, see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/535187/com ... -ancestors)

Toward the end of December, a “scientist and engineer� appeared and initiated a debate. For the very first time, somebody actually tried to refute me instead of the usual fare of contempt and insults. This self-identified scientist made it very clear that he dismissed my lengthy stories from ancestors as hallucinations, because of his reductionist materialist presupposition that any such communication at a distance, without some sort of physical connection, was impossible.

“Reductionist materialism� is but one solution to the so-called mind-body problem that exercised natural philosophers (“scientists�) in the 17th and 1th centuries. Are mind and body two separate things? If so, which one is primary? An overview of the mind-body problem can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem

Reductionist materialism means that things like astrology or shamanism or channeling or communicating with ancestors get summarily dismissed as “hallucinations� or “superstition.�

The conclusion of the debate (because the scientist made a point of bowing out without offering any counter-argument) came on Jan. 7. Here is the essential part of what I wrote to the scientist:
You made it clear that you consider mind to be an epiphenomenon of neural activity in the brain, and you go on to say: “To me, the mind is a function of a living brain, meaning that they’re not distinct. In my opinion, there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, like a brain.�

In response to your opinion that there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, the obvious question is, why not? I am reminded of the New York Times declaring that a heavier-than-air flying machine was impossible. Your opinion seems to be unscientific, and serves to block skeptical inquiry. It would also seem to be rigidly atheistic (denying the possibility of a transcendent deity), as opposed to a healthy skepticism when approaching questions that appear to be unknowable. Your position regarding belief in witchcraft, denying that it has anything to do with “truth,� also seems to be arbitrarily rigid and unscientific, opposed to a spirit of skeptical inquiry. However, perhaps you wrote hastily and polemically, and perhaps in general you are able to keep an open mind regarding subjects where you are inclined to strongly doubt claims that violate your pre-existing suppositions about reality.

Please keep in mind that, regarding the mind/body problem, there used to be (and still are) several different approaches, as opposed to the mind-numbing reductionist materialist view that is overwhelmingly prevalent today in science departments. Perhaps Leibniz’s approach was the most esoteric, and he was a renowned scientist and mathematician (as well as a philosopher and diplomat). His view was routinely dismissed but never refuted (as far as I am aware), but Leibniz’s influence simply disappeared from universities after protracted tenure battles in the mid-eighteenth century. However, Leibniz’s view isn’t the only possibility. I am intrigued by the thought that both matter and consciousness are manifestations of something underlying, which is not inconsistent with my own view of reality.

It seems to me that reductionist materialism (your stated belief) fails to explain the all-important phenomenon of human creativity, as measured by our ability to reorganize our environment (as a result of scientific discovery and technological progress) to establish a potential population density orders of magnitude above that of a primitive hunter-gatherer society in the same geographical area. (There is an important corollary here: Once a human society exits the Stone Age and begins using metal as a basic part of the production of food and tools, in the long run we must continue to progress or collapse due to resource depletion, especially regarding the need for progressively more efficient sources of energy. And there is another corollary as well: As a society gets more technologically complex, the minimum area for measuring relative potential population density increases.)

Is this human capability explainable in terms of matter reorganizing itself in ever-more-complex fashion? If you answer “yes� to such a question, the subsidiary question is: how does matter organize itself in ever-more-complex ways (such as the creation of human brains that then come up with the technological breakthroughs and social organization to support ever-higher relative potential population densities)? Does random chance work for you as an answer to this question? If so, isn’t that an arbitrary (and therefore unscientific) theological supposition? Or do you see the inherent logic in positing some form of intelligent design (an argument as old as Plato)? If you accept the principle of intelligent design, it seems to me that, to be consistent, the reductionist materialist view would have to posit an immanent (as opposed to transcendent) intelligence, as with the Spinozistic pantheism that influenced Locke’s followers and arguably influenced Locke himself. But if you go in that direction, where is the “universal mind� that is guiding the formation of human brains capable of creative discovery, and how does it communicate with the matter that comprises such brains? The way I see things, both the “deification of random chance� argument and the supposition of an immanent “divine� creative force have insurmountable problems, leaving some sort of transcendent divinity as the default answer regarding the question of the efficient cause of human creativity, with the final cause being the imperative for humans to participate in the ongoing creation of the universe.
The forum thread where this originally appeared is here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... yqswb4d5WA
"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar

"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI

"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0

"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 9370
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 900 times
Been thanked: 1258 times

Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #41

Post by Clownboat »

Divine Insight wrote:
John Human wrote: The way I see things, Darwin's "natural selection" puts forth a metaphor as a causal agent, which makes even less sense than Creation Science.
With a statement like this you are only demonstrating that you don't understand how natural selection works. It's hardly a "metaphor".

John Human wrote: Your strident tone, your evident fervent vehemence and your disinclination to consider whatever might be my point of view, all seem to be decidedly unscientific. Once again, perhaps you could point to one single example of a species that has been proven to have come into existence through "natural selection"?
If you can't do so, then the door seems to be open to entertain other potential answers to the question of how evolution happens.
The door is wide open John.

All you need to do is provide a rational explanation.

The claim that some invisible God did it when there is absolutely no evidence to back up that claim doesn't cut it.

If fact, I'm pretty sure I already covered that. Complaining about our current knowledge is meaningless when you obviously have nothing to offer to replace it.

Your position is crystal clear.

1. You don't understand the current scientific explanation (your comments have already proven that fact).

2. You apparently become emotionally upset when people point out that you have nothing to offer to replace the current knowledge. This is apparently because you are pushing your emotions onto me in your quote above. There is no "fervent vehemence" in my replies. This is obviously emotions you are pushing onto my replies apparently because you don't like the content.

No one would love for there to be a "Creator God" more than me John. But wanting something to be true is no reason to accept irrational guesses that fly in the face of known facts.

There simply is no reason to even postulate that our world was created by an intelligent designer. Just look around John. The world clearly isn't very intelligently designed. Unless you think it would be intelligent to design horrific diseases, birth defects, and a natural dog-eat-dog world.

What kind of an intelligent designer would pull a stunt like that? :-k

That would need to be a quite malevolent creator to be sure.

You aren't just fighting against known science. But you are also trying to support "theories" that don't even make any sense. Never mind that there isn't any evidence for them too boot.

It makes no sense that a God would design birth defects and horrible diseases. So why even bother trying to pretend that it could make sense?
Something to consider...

People being able to convince themselves that all of science is wrong on a matter and they infact have it correct is extremely empowering.

IMO, this is why many support things like a flat earth and why many claim common scientific knowledge is incorrect, like evolution. Which would explain why we see so many complaints about current knowledge without offering any kind of evidence/observations for an alternative here.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

Guy Threepwood
Sage
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #42

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 31 by John Human]
First of all, saying that natural selection "creates" or "does" anything is implying consciousness or will, in effect personifying (and in this case deifying) random chance. I'll suggest that we have to be careful not to transform a metaphor into a causal agent.
Yes, and if God created two animals with varying attributes, the one better suited to any particular environment would naturally tend to do better there... i.e. I see 'natural selection' as an entirely moot point- it says nothing about how new designs arise.

The problem is, always has been, the arrival of the fittest, not survival
the idea of a supernatural creative force intervening in the genome producing evolutionary changes (one of the competing theories; see the wikipedia article "Alternatives to evolution by natural selection") is obviously not amenable to reductionist materialism, nor is it amenable to empirical evidence gathering

A lot of these debates get mired in semantics, but anything described as 'supernatural', under methodological naturalism, is not merely 'not amenable' but explicitly forbidden!

It was this rationale many used to reject the primeval atom (big bang) for decades. it was a 'supernatural' theory for many atheists because of the overt theistic implications they saw in it.

So the problem is how a materialist objectively determines what is 'supernatural' and hence 'forbidden' is it not?

Most materialists, I would say, do not consider intelligence itself as inherently 'supernatural'- e.g. deducing intelligent design in the Rosetta Stone is not a 'supernatural' argument

Same goes for non-human and even unknown sources of intelligence- in the case of a hypothetical SETI signal for instance

Also- a phenomena transcending nature as we know it, in order to be able to account for it- - e.g. multiverses, M theory, - is not inherently 'supernatural' either..

So ID does not violate any particular materialistic principle. It's only when a certain combination of accepted principles is combined that it becomes 'supernatural' and hence 'unacceptable' i.e. intelligence- a real phenomena that we know to exist within the universe, transcending physical reality as we know it.

Only hypothetical materialistic mechanisms are permitted to make this leap without becoming 'supernatural'...

If there is an objective reasoning behind this rule, I have yet to find it

User avatar
DrNoGods
Prodigy
Posts: 2716
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Nevada
Has thanked: 593 times
Been thanked: 1642 times

Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #43

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 42 by Guy Threepwood]
If there is an objective reasoning behind this rule, I have yet to find it.


It is very simple. Science deals with things that can be measured, observed, interrogated via experiments, etc. Some of these investigations lead to hypotheses that are the rational outcome of what the data suggests, and some of those hypotheses become theories when supported by a sufficient amount of evidence (eg. evolution). Some of the hypotheses are simply the current best explanation of something even if incomplete.

The Big Bang is a good example of this. It is an extrapolation from observations that everything in the observable universe on large scales is moving away from everything else, so running back in time would suggest that eventually things would converge to a much smaller "thing." But it is also not inconsistent with other physics such as general relativity until things get to the point of a singularity, indicating that things aren't fully understood. But the Big Bang isn't just some faith-based idea of how this universe may have begun ... it is what observations and physics suggest is a possibilty so it remains a hypothesis that is yet to be "proven" in every detail. There are many other examples, but the point is that the Big Bang isn't just invented from thin air without any supporting evidence or theoretical support, unlike gods or other supernatural entities.

So there is no "rule" involved as to what is supernatural or not. Humans have invented literally thousands of gods, but so far there is zero evidence for any one of them. They don't come about as as result of observations, or experimental evidence, etc. ... they are invented by humans, entirely, and there is simply no evidence or scientific reason to suggest they actually exist. People want to believe they exist, so go to great lengths to support their belief, but there is no basis in science for these beliefs. Things like this with no observational or experimental support can be lumped into "supernatural" or "imaginary" until there is some kind of physical evidence or observational evidence that could lead to a rational expectation that one or more of the thousands of invented gods existed or exists now.

But there is virtually nothing in this regard concerning gods of any type. Stories from 2000+ year old holy books doesn't cut it. Christians can't be right if Hindus are right, and vice versa. Many of these god concepts are incompatible with each other so they cannot all exist. Doesn't it seem far more rational to believe that none of them exist, rather than just the one(s) a particular religion supports? Would you argue with a Hindu and tell them their gods are all fake? Or do you believe their gods are also real and gods are just whatever someone believes they are (making them purely a mental construct, which so far appears to be the case)?
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

User avatar
DrNoGods
Prodigy
Posts: 2716
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Nevada
Has thanked: 593 times
Been thanked: 1642 times

Re: evidence for past lives: the case of James Leininger

Post #44

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 39 by John Human]
What do you think about Dr. Tucker’s presentation of the Leininger case?


I read it and it appears he believes the account and so is wording his document accordingly. But I'd go back to the facts we do know about how humans are conceived and develop, and ask how likely it is that someone could actually have lived a former life.

We know that human beings begin as a singe cell in a human female ("egg") that is fertilized by a sperm to start the process of cell multiplications and the building of various organs and body components that ultimately result in the live birth of a complete little human. We know a lot about this whole process from beginning to end. There is a point where there is only a neural tube and no functioning brain, so there is no ability for this developing human to have any knowledge of itself or anything else in the world. It cannot think or "know" anything at all because it has no brain, which is the organ that allows humans to think, be conscious, etc.

Given this, how it is possible for the brain of this newly forming human to obtain information in the form of memory from another human being either living or dead? My skepticism is simply from the standpoint of a mechanism for how such a thing as the Leininger story could happen, given what we know about how humans develop from the initial unfertilized egg. Reincarnation just has no viable mechanism, same with communication with the dead or other things like this.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

Guy Threepwood
Sage
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #45

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 43 by DrNoGods]
It is very simple. Science deals with things that can be measured, observed, interrogated via experiments, etc.
so not multiverses, m theory, string theory, macro evolution, abiogenesis...
So there is no "rule" involved as to what is supernatural or not.
So an intelligent creator of the universe should not be ruled out under methodological naturalism. Some do this, so if you don't- that's a start!

People want to believe they exist, so go to great lengths to support their belief
I can say that premise is flat out wrong in my case any many others. I was raised a staunch atheist and remained so for decades, I was perfectly content with that belief- but cracks appeared delving into more detail in physics and biology.
Things like this with no observational or experimental support can be lumped into "supernatural"
there is no "rule" involved as to what is supernatural or not.
So which is it??

if the former then:

multiverses, Darwinian evolution, abiogenesis, I disagree, it's not fair to label these 'supernatural' as your laws dictate, who knows, the observational/ experimental evidence for these may one day reveal themselves.

Meanwhile we do have direct observation evidence for the phenomena of creative intelligence and the results of it's activity.
i.e. It's not a supernatural phenomena by your definition.
Stories from 2000+ year old holy books doesn't cut it
the most influential book in the history of humanity, shaping modern civilization as we know it today..

It's not impossible that this was unintended, came as a complete surprise to God, not part of any larger plan- but I'm not sure that would be the most logical assumption

Having said that I would not flatter myself as a Christian, you would be better directing this argument at someone who is.

I am primarily skeptical of materialistic explanations for life and the universe- Andrei Linde's speculation could be correct- we are the result of an 'alien universe' reverse engineering itself, as we are doing to this one- that would be just one of many possible solutions involving ID- is that a 'supernatural' speculation? We could debate that I'm sure, but the more interesting question is: is it true?

but one way or another, I believe science increasingly points to somebody having designed all this for a reason- who and why are fascinating questions- but higher order ones

User avatar
DrNoGods
Prodigy
Posts: 2716
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Nevada
Has thanked: 593 times
Been thanked: 1642 times

Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #46

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 45 by Guy Threepwood]
so not multiverses, m theory, string theory, macro evolution, abiogenesis...


These are either hypotheses (abiogenesis), mathematical frameworks to try and explain observations (multiverses, m theory, string theory), or actual observed phenomena ("macro" evolution). None of these are supernatural by any definition. On the other hand, things like gods, unicorns, leprechauns, spirits, etc. are things that are proposed to exist but have never been observed, nor anything supposedly done or produced by them ever verified by observation or experiment. Things like this are supernatural for that very reason. Twisting the definition of supernatural to include something like string theory is too much of a stretch.
So an intelligent creator of the universe should not be ruled out under methodological naturalism. Some do this, so if you don't- that's a start!


I'm saying you are taking far too much liberty with the definition of the word supernatural and trying to make it fit something like string theory. An intelligent creator of the universe is a hypothesis with, so far, zero observational or experimental support. If such a being or creature were to make itself known in some way (other than someone's idea that it might exist) I'd be the first to change my mind. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
I was raised a staunch atheist and remained so for decades, I was perfectly content with that belief- but cracks appeared delving into more detail in physics and biology.


I was raised a staunch Christian and although I knew I hated going to church and all the other related things (eg. having to pray before every meal), I never questioned christianity and just accepted it as a given (my mother was hard core religious and forced it on the kids from birth). But in my late 20s after many conversations with a very nice Hindu couple at work I decided to study the different religions of the world to check into their origins, beliefs, etc. That's when I became convinced that of the three basic options for gods (all of the thousands invented by humans exist, only one of them exists, or none of them exist), only the last one could be correct. I've been a staunch atheist ever since and get more convinced every day that this is the correct answer. Gods are imaginary.
So which is it??


I was referring to your last comment in post 42. You don't seem to like having gods characterized as "supernatural" and therefore disregarded by materialists. But gods must be supernatural by definition as they can't be observed in any way to exist, and are never anything more than postulated to exist (all of the thousands humans have invented).
multiverses, Darwinian evolution, abiogenesis, I disagree, it's not fair to label these 'supernatural' as your laws dictate, who knows, the observational/ experimental evidence for these may one day reveal themselves


You're again equating scientific hypotheses (multiverses, abiogenesis) or validated theories (Darwinian evolution) with the term supernatural. Playing word games.
the most influential book in the history of humanity, shaping modern civilization as we know it today..


And I don't think anyone knows why the God of Abraham and the Jesus story caught on so well. But so did the Greek and Roman gods in their day, and I expect these Abrahamic religions will go like all the others before it and lose popularity one day when another idea comes along. Apparently, about 50-55% of the world population worship the God of Abraham (mostly christians and muslims) but that has no bearing on whether or not it is true. The other half of the population have other views.
but one way or another, I believe science increasingly points to somebody having designed all this for a reason- who and why are fascinating questions- but higher order ones


And it still boils down to evidence (or lack thereof). No god ever imagined by a human has revealed itself in any tangible way, and science continues to eliminate reasons to assign things to gods. That wasn't true 2000-3000 years ago when the current popular monotheist religions came into existence, and deities were handy explanations for natural phenomena that could not be explained otherwise. There is no need for that kind of thing in the 21st century. Gods are superfluous.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

Guy Threepwood
Sage
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #47

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 46 by DrNoGods]
These are either hypotheses (abiogenesis), mathematical frameworks to try and explain observations (multiverses, m theory, string theory), or actual observed phenomena ("macro" evolution). None of these are supernatural by any definition. On the other hand, things like gods, unicorns, leprechauns, spirits, etc. are things that are proposed to exist but have never been observed, nor anything supposedly done or produced by them ever verified by observation or experiment
there are objective mathematical frameworks and observed phenomena used to establish intelligent agency in crime scenes, archaeological digs, hypothetical SETI signals and information systems in general, which are also applied by scientists today to intelligent design in biology, chemistry, and physics

On the other hand, things like phrenology,canals on mars, multiverses, rabbits spontaneously appearing from hats, Darwinian evolution, astrology, multiverses, steady state, etc etc have never been verified by observation or experiment.

works at least as well the other way- but of course each is an individual case.- lumping then together to try to establish 'guilt by association' is not exactly the scientific method in it's purest form!
Twisting the definition of supernatural to include something like string theory is too much of a stretch.

Things like this with no observational or experimental support can be lumped into "supernatural"

agreed, ^ it was your definition of supernatural, not mine..
I was raised a staunch Christian and although I knew I hated going to church and all the other related things (eg. having to pray before every meal), I never questioned christianity and just accepted it as a given (my mother was hard core religious and forced it on the kids from birth). But in my late 20s after many conversations with a very nice Hindu couple at work I decided to study the different religions of the world to check into their origins, beliefs, etc. That's when I became convinced that of the three basic options for gods (all of the thousands invented by humans exist, only one of them exists, or none of them exist), only the last one could be correct. I've been a staunch atheist ever since and get more convinced every day that this is the correct answer. Gods are imaginary.
Thanks for that, I guess we can both prove just one thing, our opinions on this are entirely unreliable :)

you have a 4th option though, a God that exists independently of human attempts at the impossible, to adequately describe him
I was referring to your last comment in post 42. You don't seem to like having gods characterized as "supernatural" and therefore disregarded by materialists. But gods must be supernatural by definition as they can't be observed in any way to exist, and are never anything more than postulated to exist (all of the thousands humans have invented).
point being that multiverses clearly qualify as supernatural by the same definition

As I said before, I don't really have a problem myself with the word 'supernatural' - regarding something that must transcend nature itself in order to account for it-- I would think 'super-natural' is a box you want to be able to check.. but it's all semantics again

The substantive point is: we should not attempt to label either out of consideration, but consider each possibility on it's own merits

You're again equating scientific hypotheses (multiverses, abiogenesis) or validated theories (Darwinian evolution) with the term supernatural. Playing word games.
again these things are supernatural by the definition you gave me, I don't consider them so, we should take them on their own merits, not arbitrary labels

And I don't think anyone knows why the God of Abraham and the Jesus story caught on so well. But so did the Greek and Roman gods in their day, and I expect these Abrahamic religions will go like all the others before it and lose popularity one day when another idea comes along. Apparently, about 50-55% of the world population worship the God of Abraham (mostly christians and muslims) but that has no bearing on whether or not it is true. The other half of the population have other views.
the most popular book/religion in human history is consistent with divine inspiration- 'we' could be in error of course, but not simply 'by default' that assertion would need support also
And it still boils down to evidence (or lack thereof). No god ever imagined by a human has revealed itself in any tangible way
And it still boils down to evidence (or lack thereof). No materialistic universe creating mechanism ever imagined by a human has revealed itself in any tangible way.

where does that wash leave us? not entirely empty handed:

We do have repeatable, testable, observable evidence of a known phenomena capable of solving the core problem; the origination of novel information systems.

and science continues to eliminate reasons to assign things to gods. That wasn't true 2000-3000 years ago when the current popular monotheist religions came into existence, and deities were handy explanations for natural phenomena that could not be explained otherwise. There is no need for that kind of thing in the 21st century. Gods are superfluous.
you're running afoul of the watchmaker analogy again - finding mechanisms inside a watch instead of a little man turning the hands, does not make ID superfluous, quite the opposite- reductionism in the simplistic Victorian age model of reality faced far fewer hurdles than today


'Nature is the executor of God's laws" Galileo

User avatar
DrNoGods
Prodigy
Posts: 2716
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Nevada
Has thanked: 593 times
Been thanked: 1642 times

Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #48

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 47 by Guy Threepwood]
On the other hand, things like phrenology,canals on mars, multiverses, rabbits spontaneously appearing from hats, Darwinian evolution, astrology, multiverses, steady state, etc etc have never been verified by observation or experiment.


But no one is claiming that rabbits from hats, astrology or multiverses are real. One is a "magic" trick, one is nonsense, and one is a physics hypothesis that is still very much at hypothesis stage. Evolution by natural selection is different because that has been supported by extensive evidence and observation (whether you believe it or not). You are playing word games again to try and classify evolution with magic tricks as if they are both in the same category.
you have a 4th option though, a God that exists independently of human attempts at the impossible, to adequately describe him


Then what is the point? Why postulate the existence of a being that cannot be described, and then attribute something like creation of life or the universe to this thing? Maybe philosophers could have a field day with that sort of thing.
point being that multiverses clearly qualify as supernatural by the same definition


Again, who is claiming that multiverses are real? They are postulated possibilities that evidently fall out of some mathematical formulisms of physics. But that isn't the same thing as a god being that is claimed to be able to do physical things in the real world. And evolution is not in the same category as multiverses because it is real and observed.
And it still boils down to evidence (or lack thereof). No materialistic universe creating mechanism ever imagined by a human has revealed itself in any tangible way.


Why do theists always resort to this creation of the universe issue? Start at 4.6 billion years ago when our planet formed and that is where naturalistic ideas can be directly verified, observed, tested, etc. There are hypotheses like the Big Bang that are the current "best" attempts to explain how the universe may have started, but the mathematics breaks down eventually although many things are consistent with that idea (eg. the observed expansion of the universe that we can see). This has nothing at all to do with evolution, whether humans have afterlives or past lives, etc. I personally don't care how the universe came into being and don't think the issue is that important except to physicists who want an answer, or possibly theists who like to use that still unexplained event as some go-to issue on god questions or to bash physics and science because the details are not yet proven.
'Nature is the executor of God's laws" Galileo


Another quote from a long dead scientist. Galileo was wrong.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

Guy Threepwood
Sage
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #49

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 48 by DrNoGods]

But no one is claiming that rabbits from hats are real
That was my point, nobody is claiming leprechauns are real, but you used that as an example of an imaginary 'supernatural' being- to lump God in with

so I responded in kind, there are imaginary supernatural materialistic process also- like handkerchiefs turning into flowers. I don't think it's fair to lump evolution in with that either

certainly many claim multiverses are real, without any observational evidence- the 'math' this is based on, is that some sort of infinite probability machine is the only remaining way to overcome all the staggering improbabilities, and create everything you see around you, without any creative intelligence. That's where they lost me and many others, if 'infinite probability machine' is your only other option, that's a pretty good test in itself to determine that something was probably just designed that way

So far under direct laboratory conditions, we can observe bacteria spontaneously evolving into... more bacteria- the belief that they can spontaneously evolve into human beings is not supported by direct observational evidence.
Then what is the point? Why postulate the existence of a being that cannot be described, and then attribute something like creation of life or the universe to this thing? Maybe philosophers could have a field day with that sort of thing.
We can tell a lot from a person's work, but we can't comprehend everything about a being that is apparently so much more technologically advanced- at least not yet, the same would apply to finding an advanced race of aliens.

Why do theists always resort to this creation of the universe issue? Start at 4.6 billion years ago when our planet formed and that is where naturalistic ideas can be directly verified, observed, tested, etc. There are hypotheses like the Big Bang that are the current "best" attempts to explain how the universe may have started, but the mathematics breaks down eventually although many things are consistent with that idea (eg. the observed expansion of the universe that we can see). This has nothing at all to do with evolution, whether humans have afterlives or past lives, etc. I personally don't care how the universe came into being and don't think the issue is that important except to physicists who want an answer, or possibly theists who like to use that still unexplained event as some go-to issue on god questions or to bash physics and science because the details are not yet proven.
it's not important... but you put some time here into passionately arguing for a materialistic cause. I think, like the rest of us, you are naturally curious as to the ultimate question- why are we here? what is our purpose?

you're only human. Me too, I just come to a different conclusion.

User avatar
DrNoGods
Prodigy
Posts: 2716
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Nevada
Has thanked: 593 times
Been thanked: 1642 times

Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #50

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 49 by Guy Threepwood]
I think, like the rest of us, you are naturally curious as to the ultimate question- why are we here? what is our purpose?


I never think about these questions because I'm convinced there is no "purpose" for humans being here any more than any other animal. We evolved from a great ape ancestor as has been shown conclusively to be the case, and like any other animal we eventually die and our existence in the universe is over at that point.

There is no reason to ponder whether or not there is some reason or purpose for our existence because there isn't (IMO). We're just another animal, although our highly evolved brains cause some people to spend time formulating and thinking about these kinds of purely philosophical questions.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

Post Reply