Debate with a scientist

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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John Human
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Debate with a scientist

Post #1

Post by John Human »

Back in December and January, I had a debate with a scientist at a forum for medieval genealogists, where people routinely ridicule the thought of directly communicating with deceased ancestors. (For an explanation of communicating with ancestors, see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/535187/com ... -ancestors)

Toward the end of December, a “scientist and engineer� appeared and initiated a debate. For the very first time, somebody actually tried to refute me instead of the usual fare of contempt and insults. This self-identified scientist made it very clear that he dismissed my lengthy stories from ancestors as hallucinations, because of his reductionist materialist presupposition that any such communication at a distance, without some sort of physical connection, was impossible.

“Reductionist materialism� is but one solution to the so-called mind-body problem that exercised natural philosophers (“scientists�) in the 17th and 1th centuries. Are mind and body two separate things? If so, which one is primary? An overview of the mind-body problem can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem

Reductionist materialism means that things like astrology or shamanism or channeling or communicating with ancestors get summarily dismissed as “hallucinations� or “superstition.�

The conclusion of the debate (because the scientist made a point of bowing out without offering any counter-argument) came on Jan. 7. Here is the essential part of what I wrote to the scientist:
You made it clear that you consider mind to be an epiphenomenon of neural activity in the brain, and you go on to say: “To me, the mind is a function of a living brain, meaning that they’re not distinct. In my opinion, there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, like a brain.�

In response to your opinion that there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, the obvious question is, why not? I am reminded of the New York Times declaring that a heavier-than-air flying machine was impossible. Your opinion seems to be unscientific, and serves to block skeptical inquiry. It would also seem to be rigidly atheistic (denying the possibility of a transcendent deity), as opposed to a healthy skepticism when approaching questions that appear to be unknowable. Your position regarding belief in witchcraft, denying that it has anything to do with “truth,� also seems to be arbitrarily rigid and unscientific, opposed to a spirit of skeptical inquiry. However, perhaps you wrote hastily and polemically, and perhaps in general you are able to keep an open mind regarding subjects where you are inclined to strongly doubt claims that violate your pre-existing suppositions about reality.

Please keep in mind that, regarding the mind/body problem, there used to be (and still are) several different approaches, as opposed to the mind-numbing reductionist materialist view that is overwhelmingly prevalent today in science departments. Perhaps Leibniz’s approach was the most esoteric, and he was a renowned scientist and mathematician (as well as a philosopher and diplomat). His view was routinely dismissed but never refuted (as far as I am aware), but Leibniz’s influence simply disappeared from universities after protracted tenure battles in the mid-eighteenth century. However, Leibniz’s view isn’t the only possibility. I am intrigued by the thought that both matter and consciousness are manifestations of something underlying, which is not inconsistent with my own view of reality.

It seems to me that reductionist materialism (your stated belief) fails to explain the all-important phenomenon of human creativity, as measured by our ability to reorganize our environment (as a result of scientific discovery and technological progress) to establish a potential population density orders of magnitude above that of a primitive hunter-gatherer society in the same geographical area. (There is an important corollary here: Once a human society exits the Stone Age and begins using metal as a basic part of the production of food and tools, in the long run we must continue to progress or collapse due to resource depletion, especially regarding the need for progressively more efficient sources of energy. And there is another corollary as well: As a society gets more technologically complex, the minimum area for measuring relative potential population density increases.)

Is this human capability explainable in terms of matter reorganizing itself in ever-more-complex fashion? If you answer “yes� to such a question, the subsidiary question is: how does matter organize itself in ever-more-complex ways (such as the creation of human brains that then come up with the technological breakthroughs and social organization to support ever-higher relative potential population densities)? Does random chance work for you as an answer to this question? If so, isn’t that an arbitrary (and therefore unscientific) theological supposition? Or do you see the inherent logic in positing some form of intelligent design (an argument as old as Plato)? If you accept the principle of intelligent design, it seems to me that, to be consistent, the reductionist materialist view would have to posit an immanent (as opposed to transcendent) intelligence, as with the Spinozistic pantheism that influenced Locke’s followers and arguably influenced Locke himself. But if you go in that direction, where is the “universal mind� that is guiding the formation of human brains capable of creative discovery, and how does it communicate with the matter that comprises such brains? The way I see things, both the “deification of random chance� argument and the supposition of an immanent “divine� creative force have insurmountable problems, leaving some sort of transcendent divinity as the default answer regarding the question of the efficient cause of human creativity, with the final cause being the imperative for humans to participate in the ongoing creation of the universe.
The forum thread where this originally appeared is here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... yqswb4d5WA
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #51

Post by John Human »

Divine Insight wrote:
John Human wrote: The way I see things, Darwin's "natural selection" puts forth a metaphor as a causal agent, which makes even less sense than Creation Science.
With a statement like this you are only demonstrating that you don't understand how natural selection works. It's hardly a "metaphor".
Select means to choose carefully. Selection means a careful choice. Choice implies consciousness and will. Metaphor: we have the implied supposition that a conscious, willful being (Nature) chooses. Not really, "natural selection" is just a fancy phrase to describe random chance as the generating principle for brand-new species. Once again, could you please name a single species that can be proven to have evolved from its predecessor by means of natural selection. I'm still waiting...
The claim that some invisible God did it when there is absolutely no evidence to back up that claim doesn't cut it.
I never made such a claim. I can think of other alternatives.
Complaining about our current knowledge is meaningless when you obviously have nothing to offer to replace it.

Regarding "natural selection" as the causal factor for the origin of species, there is no current knowledge, just an empty supposition. Your "current knowledge" is the "scientific" equivalent of Santa Claus.
You don't understand the current scientific explanation
The current fairy-tale explanation isn't scientific and it isn't knowledge. It's just a deceptively-worded blind supposition. Once again, could you please name a single species that has been demonstrated to have evolved by means of natural selection. I'm still waiting...
wanting something to be true is no reason to accept irrational guesses

And mis-named "natural selection" would seem to be just such an irrational guess, tailored to meet an arbitrary bias toward reductionist materialism.
There simply is no reason to even postulate that our world was created by an intelligent designer. Just look around John. The world clearly isn't very intelligently designed. Unless you think it would be intelligent to design horrific diseases, birth defects, and a natural dog-eat-dog world.
You are now touching on the well-trodden issue of theodicy -- the centuries-old question of how a benevolent, all-powerful, wise Creator could have made the world as it is. The best-known work on this subject is Liebniz's "Theodicy." Leibniz took the position that the world as we know it is the " best of all possible worlds," a position that was mis-represented and mercilessly lampooned by Voltaire with the fictional character of Dr. Pangloss.
It makes no sense that a God would design birth defects and horrible diseases. So why even bother trying to pretend that it could make sense?
I'll suggest that there might be something wrong with the supposition underlying your statement. Right now, and on this thread, I'm not inclined to argue the pros and cons of theodicy. I simply note Leibniz's position as a natural starting point for such a discussion, which you might be well-advised to work through before being so energetic in promoting your own point of view. A bit of diffidence in the face of the unknown is often prudent.
"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar

"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI

"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0

"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #52

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 50 by DrNoGods]
I never think about these questions because I\'m convinced there is no \"purpose\"
You never think about it... yet you are convinced of a particular conclusion, despite lack of observable evidence for any materialistic mechanism which could design everything you see around you without purpose- or even any sort of information system arising this way- creation without creativity.
There is no reason to ponder whether or not there is some reason or purpose for our existence because there isn\'t (IMO). We\'re just another animal, although our highly evolved brains cause some people to spend time formulating and thinking about these kinds of purely philosophical questions.
well, just another animal, - the only one out of millions of species, who as far as we can tell, is the only means by which the universe is literally self-aware- can ponder it's own existence

By sheer chance? That's one belief of many possibilities, we all believe in something- and we ourselves used to take opposite positions

Out of curiosity though- you say you are 'convinced' of this belief , does that really mean 100%?

What odds would you give, that you might just possibly be wrong? we've both already been wrong on this one way or another right? ;)

is that possibility really zero now?

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #53

Post by Divine Insight »

John Human wrote: Select means to choose carefully. Selection means a careful choice. Choice implies consciousness and will..
Absolute nonsense.

To the contrary our understanding of evolution doesn't require any conscious thought in the process at all.

In fact, evolution by "natural selection" is actually over for humans. Humans have now become so technological due to our conscious awareness, that we are now purposefully making choices and doing things that are causing us to evolve in an unnatural way. And far more importantly, our conscious efforts in this don't even take into consideration how we might be changing our evolution. Because of this we will most likely destroy ourselves.

So evolution by "natural selection" (which did not require conscious thought or planning) has basically ended. We are still evolving, but it's no longer via a process of "natural selection". Now it has become a process of purposeful selection by us, and even though we are purposefully doing the selecting, we aren't doing it with evolution in mind. So the whole thing has basically become a train wreck.

But no, you are absolutely wrong if you think that evolution requires any forethought of consciousness.

This only proves beyond any doubt that you do not understand how evolution works.
John Human wrote:
The claim that some invisible God did it when there is absolutely no evidence to back up that claim doesn't cut it.
I never made such a claim. I can think of other alternatives.
You clearly don't even understand how evolution works and your going to offer another alternative? :-k

Moreover, isn't that precisely what I had already suggested. If you have a rational alternative to evolution just offer it up. If it had any credibility and can be demonstrated to be true you'll win a Noble Prize and your explanation of how things came to be the way they are will become standard knowledge.

But let's face the truth here. You don't have a viable alternative to evolution. All you have are complaints about something that you clearly don't even understand at all.

You just said:
John Human wrote: Select means to choose carefully. Selection means a careful choice. Choice implies consciousness and will.
That's exactly the same thing as saying, "I have absolutely no clue how evolution actually works."
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #54

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 51 by John Human]
Select means to choose carefully. Selection means a careful choice. Choice implies consciousness and will. Metaphor: we have the implied supposition that a conscious, willful being (Nature) chooses. Not really, "natural selection" is just a fancy phrase to describe random chance as the generating principle for brand-new species. Once again, could you please name a single species that can be proven to have evolved from its predecessor by means of natural selection. I'm still waiting...
I think you hit on a key point, 'natural selection' unconsciously endows chance with the ability to make 'good choices' in anticipation of a future pay-off, a form of anthropomorphism which is utterly essential for the Darwinian algorithm to work.

Without this, survival of the fittest does nothing to achieve survival of the fitter

It is completely defenseless against entropy

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #55

Post by Clownboat »

Then what is the point? Why postulate the existence of a being that cannot be described, and then attribute something like creation of life or the universe to this thing? Maybe philosophers could have a field day with that sort of thing.
(Not directly answering your questions as I understand 'why' you asked it).
Why do this?
Once a god concept/concepts is believed, you then get people (often times called priest, pastors, shamans, etc) that begin to make claims on behalf of said god concept. Everything from "give me 10% of your income" to "god wants you to commit genocide against another peoples".

So why? Simply for power and control and to provide answers to unknown questions. Again, literal genocide has been done in the name of gods! Too great of a tool for humans not to realize it and use and abuse it. This would explain why all civilizations throughout time (best we can tell) have invented god concepts.
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #56

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 54 by Guy Threepwood]
I think you hit on a key point, 'natural selection' unconsciously endows chance with the ability to make 'good choices' in anticipation of a future pay-off, a form of anthropomorphism which is utterly essential for the Darwinian algorithm to work.


No it doesn't (underline mine). I expect you and John would both agree that artificial selection exists and works. We have, through intentional selection of characteristics that we want, created (via selective breeding) all kinds of beneficial traits in things like corn, wheat, dairy cows, etc., as well as weird things like Labradoodles which we'd probably be better off without.

Natural selection is exactly the same thing, but instead of a human making intentional selections it is nature that "does" the selecting. Not by any conscious choice, but through higher survival and reproduction rates for those individuals in a population that happen to obtain a beneficial mutation, insertion, deletion, etc. (such as a bacterium that can better resist an antibiotic and therefore outreproduce its competitors). "Nature" in this case may be a drastic climate or geographical change, or (to a bacterium) a human administering an antibiotic to the environment the bacterium lives in. But natural selection and artificial selection are the same thing at a mechanistic level ... they are just different in what drives the process (ie. how the "forcing" originates).

For just one example of a new species arriving by natural selection (among the tens of thousands of examples that could be given) ... how about Homo sapiens from earlier Homo species? That seems a relevant and recent example, demonstrating the benefits of a more capable brain which outcompeted and "won" (so far) the position at the top of the Homo chain.
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #57

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 55 by Clownboat]
So why? Simply for power and control and to provide answers to unknown questions. Again, literal genocide has been done in the name of gods! Too great of a tool for humans not to realize it and use and abuse it. This would explain why all civilizations throughout time (best we can tell) have invented god concepts.


Good point. Just another justification for the group of people wanting control and power, and if they can convince the masses to follow along with promises of an afterlife filled with infinite joy and good times, then it is that much easier to move them to do things under the guise of "god's will." I think I can count on zero hands how many virgins dead ISIS fighters were "rewarded with" in heaven.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #58

Post by Guy Threepwood »

DrNoGods wrote: [Replying to post 54 by Guy Threepwood]
I think you hit on a key point, 'natural selection' unconsciously endows chance with the ability to make 'good choices' in anticipation of a future pay-off, a form of anthropomorphism which is utterly essential for the Darwinian algorithm to work.


No it doesn't (underline mine). I expect you and John would both agree that artificial selection exists and works. We have, through intentional selection of characteristics that we want, created (via selective breeding) all kinds of beneficial traits in things like corn, wheat, dairy cows, etc., as well as weird things like Labradoodles which we'd probably be better off without.

Natural selection is exactly the same thing, but instead of a human making intentional selections it is nature that "does" the selecting. Not by any conscious choice, but through higher survival and reproduction rates for those individuals in a population that happen to obtain a beneficial mutation, insertion, deletion, etc. (such as a bacterium that can better resist an antibiotic and therefore outreproduce its competitors). "Nature" in this case may be a drastic climate or geographical change, or (to a bacterium) a human administering an antibiotic to the environment the bacterium lives in. But natural selection and artificial selection are the same thing at a mechanistic level ... they are just different in what drives the process (ie. how the "forcing" originates).

For just one example of a new species arriving by natural selection (among the tens of thousands of examples that could be given) ... how about Homo sapiens from earlier Homo species? That seems a relevant and recent example, demonstrating the benefits of a more capable brain which outcompeted and "won" (so far) the position at the top of the Homo chain.
I take your point, but you are referencing two completely different mechanisms, one purposeful and one blind, and it is very easy to mistakenly endow the latter with the capabilities of the former a.k.a anthropomorphism

For example

You empty your pockets at the end of the day, you discard the candy wrappers and retain the loose change...

not because there is any immediate advantage to either, but because the change will one day accumulate into something worthwhile, while the wrappers would end up shredded all over your washing!

remove the anticipation, and the exact opposite would occur, you are more likely to throw away the heavy uncomfortable change,and ignore the wrappers which are causing you no problem right now

two completely opposite results - which version would the Darwinian algorithm reflect?

The problem here is, that literally everything we do is in anticipation of a future consequence, large or small, near or far, so that it is utterly impossible, as with optical illusions, to remove the hard wired bias from our thought experiments

But we can expose them, by measuring the lines in the optical illusion, or using computers to run the proposed Darwinian algorithm- and with our anticipation bias removed, 'future advantages' likewise are worth absolutely zero to the cold hard mathematical algorithm- the payoff has to be right now, and very significant- or no evolution is taking place.

the very small gradual accumulated advantages as might be attributed to random mutation fluking into existence from time to time, cannot provide this, without anticipation, there is no mechanism to retain them

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #59

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 58 by Guy Threepwood]
I take your point, but you are referencing two completely different mechanisms, one purposeful and one blind, and it is very easy to mistakenly endow the latter with the capabilities of the former a.k.a anthropomorphism.


No again. Obviously artificial selection is purposeful and has a goal in mind (eg. breeding for more productive cows, or more disease resistant plants). Natural selection has no predefined goal ... the only measure of whether a given "blind" DNA alteration (mutation, insertion, deletion, epigenetic effect etc.) proves to be beneficial and therefore persists is via the measuring stick of a higher reproduction and survival rate after the fact. If such a DNA change happens to result in a higher reproduction/survival rate (eg. thicker fur coat if climate changes in the cold direction) then the result is known (ie. this DNA change was beneficial). It is nature that made the climate change, and a thicker fur coat conferred an advantage to those that had it and over time that group would outreproduce the others and eventually the change becomes fixed in the population. It is very simple and no need to "endow" characteristics to it.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #60

Post by Guy Threepwood »

DrNoGods wrote: [Replying to post 55 by Clownboat]
So why? Simply for power and control and to provide answers to unknown questions. Again, literal genocide has been done in the name of gods! Too great of a tool for humans not to realize it and use and abuse it. This would explain why all civilizations throughout time (best we can tell) have invented god concepts.


Good point. Just another justification for the group of people wanting control and power, and if they can convince the masses to follow along with promises of an afterlife filled with infinite joy and good times, then it is that much easier to move them to do things under the guise of "god's will." I think I can count on zero hands how many virgins dead ISIS fighters were "rewarded with" in heaven.
The problem with that argument, is that people like Stalin, and Mao had arguably more success, oppressing and killing millions of people, from the exact opposite standpoint; there is no God, no higher authority than the state and it's cause.

Most atheists and theists themselves of course are peaceful, well meaning people,

So can we at least agree on one thing here- that politicians should not try to leverage our personal beliefs to increase their power?

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