Debate with a scientist

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John Human
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Debate with a scientist

Post #1

Post by John Human »

Back in December and January, I had a debate with a scientist at a forum for medieval genealogists, where people routinely ridicule the thought of directly communicating with deceased ancestors. (For an explanation of communicating with ancestors, see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/535187/com ... -ancestors)

Toward the end of December, a “scientist and engineer� appeared and initiated a debate. For the very first time, somebody actually tried to refute me instead of the usual fare of contempt and insults. This self-identified scientist made it very clear that he dismissed my lengthy stories from ancestors as hallucinations, because of his reductionist materialist presupposition that any such communication at a distance, without some sort of physical connection, was impossible.

“Reductionist materialism� is but one solution to the so-called mind-body problem that exercised natural philosophers (“scientists�) in the 17th and 1th centuries. Are mind and body two separate things? If so, which one is primary? An overview of the mind-body problem can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem

Reductionist materialism means that things like astrology or shamanism or channeling or communicating with ancestors get summarily dismissed as “hallucinations� or “superstition.�

The conclusion of the debate (because the scientist made a point of bowing out without offering any counter-argument) came on Jan. 7. Here is the essential part of what I wrote to the scientist:
You made it clear that you consider mind to be an epiphenomenon of neural activity in the brain, and you go on to say: “To me, the mind is a function of a living brain, meaning that they’re not distinct. In my opinion, there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, like a brain.�

In response to your opinion that there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, the obvious question is, why not? I am reminded of the New York Times declaring that a heavier-than-air flying machine was impossible. Your opinion seems to be unscientific, and serves to block skeptical inquiry. It would also seem to be rigidly atheistic (denying the possibility of a transcendent deity), as opposed to a healthy skepticism when approaching questions that appear to be unknowable. Your position regarding belief in witchcraft, denying that it has anything to do with “truth,� also seems to be arbitrarily rigid and unscientific, opposed to a spirit of skeptical inquiry. However, perhaps you wrote hastily and polemically, and perhaps in general you are able to keep an open mind regarding subjects where you are inclined to strongly doubt claims that violate your pre-existing suppositions about reality.

Please keep in mind that, regarding the mind/body problem, there used to be (and still are) several different approaches, as opposed to the mind-numbing reductionist materialist view that is overwhelmingly prevalent today in science departments. Perhaps Leibniz’s approach was the most esoteric, and he was a renowned scientist and mathematician (as well as a philosopher and diplomat). His view was routinely dismissed but never refuted (as far as I am aware), but Leibniz’s influence simply disappeared from universities after protracted tenure battles in the mid-eighteenth century. However, Leibniz’s view isn’t the only possibility. I am intrigued by the thought that both matter and consciousness are manifestations of something underlying, which is not inconsistent with my own view of reality.

It seems to me that reductionist materialism (your stated belief) fails to explain the all-important phenomenon of human creativity, as measured by our ability to reorganize our environment (as a result of scientific discovery and technological progress) to establish a potential population density orders of magnitude above that of a primitive hunter-gatherer society in the same geographical area. (There is an important corollary here: Once a human society exits the Stone Age and begins using metal as a basic part of the production of food and tools, in the long run we must continue to progress or collapse due to resource depletion, especially regarding the need for progressively more efficient sources of energy. And there is another corollary as well: As a society gets more technologically complex, the minimum area for measuring relative potential population density increases.)

Is this human capability explainable in terms of matter reorganizing itself in ever-more-complex fashion? If you answer “yes� to such a question, the subsidiary question is: how does matter organize itself in ever-more-complex ways (such as the creation of human brains that then come up with the technological breakthroughs and social organization to support ever-higher relative potential population densities)? Does random chance work for you as an answer to this question? If so, isn’t that an arbitrary (and therefore unscientific) theological supposition? Or do you see the inherent logic in positing some form of intelligent design (an argument as old as Plato)? If you accept the principle of intelligent design, it seems to me that, to be consistent, the reductionist materialist view would have to posit an immanent (as opposed to transcendent) intelligence, as with the Spinozistic pantheism that influenced Locke’s followers and arguably influenced Locke himself. But if you go in that direction, where is the “universal mind� that is guiding the formation of human brains capable of creative discovery, and how does it communicate with the matter that comprises such brains? The way I see things, both the “deification of random chance� argument and the supposition of an immanent “divine� creative force have insurmountable problems, leaving some sort of transcendent divinity as the default answer regarding the question of the efficient cause of human creativity, with the final cause being the imperative for humans to participate in the ongoing creation of the universe.
The forum thread where this originally appeared is here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... yqswb4d5WA
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #71

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 70 by rikuoamero]
If reason was all we had to go on...maybe. Thing is, in the case of your car, that isn't all we have to go on, is it? We have car factories, ever been to one? You keep ignoring this point, that we don't have the same evidence for a human or planet designer as we do for a car or painting designer.
fine but that's a different point, you said you were not engineered because you have failing parts... cars are built with a specific life span in mind also- so this does not denote spontaneous design, does it?

no I've never visited a car factory, but I would love to- have you?

But okay- to this point: if we did have nothing else to go on.. if we found a UFO crashed on Earth- would we need to visit their factory to establish intelligent design?

why not?
Are you or are you not going to answer the challenge? You claimed the Earth is a quote extremely finely engineered world, to which I ask you just how much of this Earth, this finely engineered world, is inhabitables/survivable by humans without altering this environment ourselves (such as with houses, shelters or farms or whatnot).
To this in with your latest line about the car and the driver's seat, are you now going to claim that the Earth is finely engineered but NOT with humans in mind?
it's hardly a controversial observation today, that the ocean is very much an essential part of the biosphere needed to support the diversity of life on Earth as we know it, including us. And that land/water ratio has to be very finely balanced also- something we would look for in other potentially habitable planets,
Again, we have our own radio signals. Answer this new challenge: imagine a world with SETI scientists, a world where not one human has ever broadcast a radio signal. The equipment exists, but no signal of our own has ever been broadcast. In that world, what are the scientists looking for in the radio signals they intercept? How do they know to look for these specific things?
so we are getting to the heart of it: information.

it doesn't matter if it is represented with wooden beads on an abacus, chiseled in stone, transmitted in radio waves, stored as electrical impulses in digital format- or some unfamiliar medium- specific information and information systems are the objective fingerprint of creative intelligence, not the medium used by them- though obviously that can help make a determination also
And yet your reasoning leaves out the very things I pointed out. Where is the entity that you presume intentionally created/produced dogs? What equipment did it use? Did it use equipment? Or are you going to posit magic, a wave of a hand or a mere thought or uttered word was all this entity/entities needed?
everything we can observe in this reality, space/time matter/energy is a product of this reality- asking where God is in this reality, is like asking where exactly in Middle earth Tolkien lives

As with the SETI signal though- where did it come from? who were they? what did they use to create the signal? perhaps we have no idea, this does nothing to alter the objective evidence for intelligent design, which is the information itself.

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #72

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 71 by Guy Threepwood]
fine but that's a different point, you said you were not engineered because you have failing parts
Not just because I have failing parts. It's because of the claim of what you think my designer would have to be. You're claiming some entity out there somehow engineered our entire planet. We humans can barely dream of the sort of intelligence required for such a feat.
So when I think about that, think about how intelligent a planet designer would have to be, I run into a problem. I run into me. How could such an awesome designer screw up so badly with me? I'm actually just the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty of people with far worse problems than me.
cars are built with a specific life span in mind also
If a car manufacturer, a Toyota or a Ford or a Nissan, were able to design a car that could last forever, is your reasoning they wouldn't do so, even if they could?
no I've never visited a car factory, but I would love to- have you?
Not a car one, no. But I have visited other factories. My point still stands though. You know car factories exist, you've probably seen videos of cars literally being made there, so you have not just reason but evidence as well that cars are designed and built by intelligent creatures with a purpose in mind.
Where is this evidence with regards to your mythical planet designer?
But okay- to this point: if we did have nothing else to go on.. if we found a UFO crashed on Earth- would we need to visit their factory to establish intelligent design?
Is this UFO crashing on an Earth whose people have already built vehicles of their own, up to and including space worthy vehicles? Are these people able to compare and contrast?
it's hardly a controversial observation today, that the ocean is very much an essential part of the biosphere needed to support the diversity of life on Earth as we know it, including us. And that land/water ratio has to be very finely balanced also- something we would look for in other potentially habitable planets,
Can humans live in the ocean, yes or no? What about in the tundra? Or the Sahara desert? And all of this without having to make at least a token change to the immediate environment?
The presence of the large amount of water in the Atlantic Ocean doesn't (from what I understand) do much for the survival of humans in the middle of the Sahara.
it doesn't matter if it is represented with wooden beads on an abacus, chiseled in stone, transmitted in radio waves, stored as electrical impulses in digital format- or some unfamiliar medium- specific information and information systems are the objective fingerprint of creative intelligence, not the medium used by them- though obviously that can help make a determination also
Do the humans in my hypothetical world know what an intelligent radio signal even looks like/sounds like?
everything we can observe in this reality, space/time matter/energy is a product of this reality- asking where God is in this reality, is like asking where exactly in Middle earth Tolkien lives
To follow this analogy to its ultimate conclusion is to say that this world is but a fictional construct.
I don't think that's true. Do you?
Anyway, in the real world, when it comes to designers designing things, we typically see these designers using tools. I myself am designing this comment right now using a computer, a web browser and a keyboard. Whether this world is fictional or not, in this world, that is what designers do and use. So what tools did the planet designers use, or are you literally going to insist on magic?
As with the SETI signal though- where did it come from? who were they? what did they use to create the signal? perhaps we have no idea, this does nothing to alter the objective evidence for intelligent design, which is the information itself.
And yet, in my hypothetical world, you and the other humans don't know which signal, if any, is the jackpot they're looking for. As I fully expected, you didn't list any criteria. Do you even know what SETI looks for in the real world? What their real, actual criteria is?

As I fully expected with an intelligent design advocate, your logic is sloppy and incomplete. You don't follow your own claims to their own (absurd) conclusions.
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #73

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 71 by Guy Threepwood]
Not just because I have failing parts. It's because of the claim of what you think my designer would have to be. You're claiming some entity out there somehow engineered our entire planet. We humans can barely dream of the sort of intelligence required for such a feat.
So when I think about that, think about how intelligent a planet designer would have to be, I run into a problem. I run into me. How could such an awesome designer screw up so badly with me? I'm actually just the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty of people with far worse problems than me.
well yes, the very fact that we both have the time and resources to sit here entertaining ourselves with academic debate- means we are probably luckier than most.. always worth remembering

But if you are saying that God could have should have created a world with no pain, fear, hate, grief, hunger, challenges of any kind,... well he did- and that world still exists today, for the Jellyfish

and hence they experience no triumph, learning, joy, comfort, love either. would you trade places?

why not?
If a car manufacturer, a Toyota or a Ford or a Nissan, were able to design a car that could last forever, is your reasoning they wouldn't do so, even if they could?
Yes, it's called planned obsolescence
Is this UFO crashing on an Earth whose people have already built vehicles of their own, up to and including space worthy vehicles? Are these people able to compare and contrast?
if they are, then yes, they can- likewise we have designed hierarchical digital information systems ourselves, so we CAN recognize the same architecture and design strategies in DNA

The presence of the large amount of water in the Atlantic Ocean doesn't (from what I understand) do much for the survival of humans in the middle of the Sahara.
? the oceans are unambiguously essential to complex life as we know it, including the inhabitants of timbuktu, that's not controversial at all- honestly not sure what the angle is here..

To follow this analogy to its ultimate conclusion is to say that this world is but a fictional construct.
I don't think that's true. Do you?
Anyway, in the real world, when it comes to designers designing things, we typically see these designers using tools. I myself am designing this comment right now using a computer, a web browser and a keyboard. Whether this world is fictional or not, in this world, that is what designers do and use. So what tools did the planet designers use, or are you literally going to insist on magic?
point being the creator of a world- middle Earth, minecraft, or the universe, transcends that world and the tools in it.

Did the creator of our universe use tools? quite possibly yes
And yet, in my hypothetical world, you and the other humans don't know which signal, if any, is the jackpot they're looking for. As I fully expected, you didn't list any criteria. Do you even know what SETI looks for in the real world? What their real, actual criteria is?
They don't know which signal they are looking for- until they identify it, sure..

It's quite possible for an alien signal to be indistinguishable from noise, as much of our digital code might be to them..

but that is NOT the case with things like DNA, we CAN identify specific coded instructions, we CAN recognize similar strategies familiar to programmers- we DO know that such software architecture can and routinely is created through intelligent design.

We just don't know of any materialistic process that can do tlikewise. Not saying it is technically impossible, it's just not demonstrable, observable, testable yet as ID is
As I fully expected with an intelligent design advocate, your logic is sloppy and incomplete. You don't follow your own claims to their own (absurd) conclusions.
no need for the ad-hom Rik, you sound like a perfectly logical and intelligent person to me, I used to share your conclusions very closely- I don't think they are absurd, I just don't think they are correct.

I appreciate your thoughtful responses

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #74

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 61 by Guy Threepwood]
Again though you are merely referencing changes in specifically supported variables like hair length. Nobody is debating that sort of superficial pre-supported capacity for adaptation.
But the topic was the definition of natural selection, and the comments made that it isn't legitimate because it implies "choice" or some sort of conscious decision making. That is what I was responding to. Now it sounds like your objection is the usual "macro" vs. "micro" theist argument and it is the degree to which natural selection can work that is the issue.

Let me ask this ... do you believe that amphibians evolved from fish?
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #75

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 73 by Guy Threepwood]
But if you are saying that God could have should have created a world with no pain, fear, hate, grief, hunger, challenges of any kind,... well he did- and that world still exists today, for the Jellyfish

and hence they experience no triumph, learning, joy, comfort, love either. would you trade places?
This is not a follow on from the logical conundrum of you claiming this world was intelligently designed, and yet I as a living creature clearly have a few problems.
Yes, it's called planned obsolescence
So if Ford had such plans while Nissan, Toyota and the others did not, they would not release this car? Are you suggesting that there are no financial planners who advocate for short term gains rather than long term thinking?
if they are, then yes, they can- likewise we have designed hierarchical digital information systems ourselves, so we CAN recognize the same architecture and design strategies in DNA
Do we intentionally design systems with flaws?
the oceans are unambiguously essential to complex life as we know it, including the inhabitants of timbuktu, that's not controversial at all- honestly not sure what the angle is here..
Does a human in the middle of the Sahara have access to the water in the Atlantic? The answer is no. So obviously the presence of trillions of litres of water hundreds or even thousands of miles away does not help his survival.
You're trying to argue from some remote, abstract point of view. I'm arguing specifics.
point being the creator of a world- middle Earth, minecraft, or the universe, transcends that world and the tools in it.
And if I wanted to investigate a Minecraft world, I could find the tools used to build it. I've dabbled in Minecraft. I've used computers to build the worlds.
So what tools did your planet or universe builder use? Do you have any idea at all? Or is your argument merely that you assume merely the vaguest idea of something even remotely approaching the concept of tools?
Did the creator of our universe use tools? quite possibly yes
What tools?
They don't know which signal they are looking for- until they identify it, sure..
In my hypothetical world, they are unable to identify it, because they have no previous examples of an intelligently designed radio signal to compare and contrast to.
It's quite possible for an alien signal to be indistinguishable from noise,
Thank you for making my point and agreeing with me.
but that is NOT the case with things like DNA, we CAN identify specific coded instructions, we CAN recognize similar strategies familiar to programmers- we DO know that such software architecture can and routinely is created through intelligent design.
The mere existence of DNA is not taken to be something that immediately and only leads to the conclusion of a designer. Your entire argument hinges on this, that the mere existence of something can be used to infer something about it, when you don't explain how you are able to distinguish this.
Programmers, human ones that is, did not invent the reality of logic gates. This is something that was hypothesised, explored and discovered. And yet you want to borrow from programmers and say that DNA itself was invented, which is backwards.
We just don't know of any materialistic process that can do tlikewise. Not saying it is technically impossible, it's just not demonstrable, observable, testable yet as ID is
Excuse me? ID testable? Remind me here who is the person who's been insisting that the mere existence of a thing can be used to infer that it was intelligently designed, with nothing more than its existence to go on?

Where is the testing for the intelligent design of planets, or universes? Has that ever been tested? I must've missed the newspaper headline of when that happened, surely it can't be that you're being disingenuous?
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #76

Post by Clownboat »

Guy Threepwood wrote: [Replying to post 62 by Clownboat]
point being; politicians using personal beliefs to empower themselves is in no way unique to theism
You're really trying hard to not acknowledge that humans have been creating god concepts for 10's of thousands of years. I understand this observation is not comfortable to those that would argue that one of them is actually true, but the reality is that it is more likely that all god concepts are human contructs compared to all of them, except one, as no god ever has been shown to exist much less affect our reality.
One of the oldest superstitions known to mankind, is that bad weather is caused by bad people, not natural systems, this has been used to gain political power & wealth from the dawn of civilization to this day, and probably always will.
It was actually far more common to make sacrifices (often times humans) to the sun/rain gods that were invented by the culture, but that just goes back to the point I made about how the god concepts came about.
i.e.- for every personal belief, including both theism and atheism, there is a person willing to take advantage of it for their own gain- but corruption is not the origin of the belief.
This is what has happened with religions. Ultimate power will corrupt ultimately (not just in religion either of course) and there is no more ultimate power than the power those assign to the gods they worship or more precisely, to those that speak on behalf of the gods they worship. The evidence for this is how followers are willing to give their income to those who speak for the gods and even at times commit atrocious acts such as genocide on behalf of those that speak for the gods.
Most people have been skeptical of materialism since they began pondering their own existence, and so many deduced, correctly I believe, intelligent agency at work rather than simply blind chance- to bring us back to the topic of the thread..
Materialism does seem to suggest why all the invented god concepts we know to be invented were in fact invented concepts. Anyone that wants to point to one concept out of them all and make a special declaration has their work cut out for them.
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #77

Post by Guy Threepwood »

DrNoGods wrote: [Replying to post 61 by Guy Threepwood]



Let me ask this ... do you believe that amphibians evolved from fish?

It's always good to start with what the empirical evidence has to say on the matter
Has anyone ever successfully selectively bred a fish into an amphibian?


If not, then then it's not demonstrable that this can occur within the typical selectable options as we see in common adaptation- e.g. finch beaks, peppered moths, Labradoodles..

Is there common ancestry? quite possibly, just probably not through random errors occurring in the design of a fish.

This may be a good example of some common ground I think we had to solve the problem: Where specific instructions for more complex designs are pre-existing, pre-loaded in the DNA of simpler designs, to be activated at key stages- rather than having to rely on 'lucky mistakes' to do the all the heavy lifting on all the novel engineering, that's always been the most problematic speculation of ToE

Floating jaw bones moving in preparation to work as ear components in air, limbs developing their segments and joints in preparation to walk rather than swim, lungs preparing to breath air, features that apparently may have already been developing before they left the water.

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #78

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 76 by Clownboat]
This is what has happened with religions. Ultimate power will corrupt ultimately (not just in religion either of course) and there is no more ultimate power than the power those assign to the gods they worship or more precisely, to those that speak on behalf of the gods they worship. The evidence for this is how followers are willing to give their income to those who speak for the gods and even at times commit atrocious acts such as genocide on behalf of those that speak for the gods.

Not to ignore the rest of your post but I think it is summed up here^


I don't think we disagree on most of this, people have long deduced intelligent agency and politicians have long taken advantage of it.


I disagree though that religion is inherently the most prone to corruption and abuse of power. The church was one of Hitler's most outspoken and active opponents

The problem with religion for people like Stalin and Mao, is that it represented competition for their absolute authority- personal faith, belief in a higher power
that may contradict their political/personal agendas
The evidence for this is how followers are willing to give their income
willing to give

^ case in point

Under Stalin and other socialist/atheist dictators- it did not matter if you were willing to give or not, your wealth was simply confiscated by brute force.

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #79

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 77 by Guy Threepwood]

Since you like to use the programming analogy, let me comment on your belief that DNA is quote unquote preloaded.
With computer programs, one can disassemble the program to find what might be hidden. This happens all the time with graphic card drivers, where hints as to as-yet-unnanounced cards might be hidden in the code. These can be found, if one knows what to look for.
With DNA...where and how is this done according to your beliefs? Can one take a DNA sample and find out what creatures will evolve from it? If I extract DNA from a dog today, and examine it, can I find out that thousands of years from now it'll evolve into a tentacle monster?
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #80

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 79 by rikuoamero]
Since you like to use the programming analogy, let me comment on your belief that DNA is quote unquote preloaded.
With computer programs, one can disassemble the program to find what might be hidden. This happens all the time with graphic card drivers, where hints as to as-yet-unnanounced cards might be hidden in the code. These can be found, if one knows what to look for.
With DNA...where and how is this done according to your beliefs? Can one take a DNA sample and find out what creatures will evolve from it? If I extract DNA from a dog today, and examine it, can I find out that thousands of years from now it'll evolve into a tentacle monster?

'if you know what to look for'

and that's key- it is difficult enough for a person to look at our own raw digital machine code running a game or app and recognize what it does.


The programming analogy is hard to avoid,.In fact if we are talking about hierarchical digital information systems, that's really not an 'analogy' at all- it is a quite literal and accurate description of what we are trying to reverse engineer here

As Bill Gates said,
“DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software [and hardware I would add] ever created.�

We could try altering some code, and see what part of the app crashes- which is how we can determine some DNA functionality, but if your app includes an unlicensed update or say 'pro- version' features that are not currently active - altering that code will have zero apparent effect- right?

so we might conclude that to be 'junk code', with no practical purpose..

Just as 'junk DNA', until fairly recently, was assumed to be..

I believe you noted yourself, that some simple animals have oddly large genomes

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