Can we say anything about the beginning?

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Waterfall
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Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post by Waterfall »

According to the bible:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
How can this be the beginning?

What I am looking for is something like this:

In the beginning God was slepping and then (for some reason) God woke up and created a spirituel world.

This seems more like a beginning to me.

Maybe it is not so difficult to understand that before we can talk about creation something had to be in order. Like a man and a woman. We can have a man and a woman but if they do not unite there can be no talk about creating a baby. Maybe something like this was going on in the beginning. Something had to unite before it was able to create.

Can we come up with a better story than the one in the bible?

If I was God I would create a giant planet (it is a little difficult to make an infinite planet...) and settle down there forever.

What would you do?

There are those (the Hare Krishna movement) who think Krishna always has lived on a planet in the spirituel world, but if this is true then Krishna is not the creator of that world.

Is that not a problem? How big should this planet be? No thinking about anything? Things are just perfect?

To understand this way of thinking we could imagine a planet that always has been spinning around. This is not difficult. But to say how many times it has rotated is difficult = impossible. The only way to solve this problem is to create the planet and then count the number of rotation. Otherwice there can be no answer to the question other than an infinite number.

Maybe there is no beginning?

But if you have an infinite past would you then could do something that you not already have done? I will create a universe...well...that is fine...but have you not already done that? With an infinite past everything seems to have been done? Is there not a problem here? You can´t create anything because you have already created it? Or?

It would be much easyer if God popped out of nothing...but from nothing comes nothing...so...where should we put God? Why not put God in a slepping state and then wake God up? This would solve some problems...what have you done? Nothing! How is that? Well...I was slepping! How long time was you slepping? I was slepping until I woke up! If there was some kind of cycle we could answer the question...like...I fell aslep at 24.00 and woke up at 12.00 and fell aslep at 24.00...then we could say 12 hours...but without that cycle how answer the question?

Maybe you have a better beginning?

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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post by FWI »

[Replying to post 1 by Waterfall]
Waterfall wrote:"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Can we come up with a better story than the one in the bible?


No! We can't…Unless, others just want to "make-up" an untrue narrative.

Genesis 1:1, is a single verse and simply states that God is the source for the universe, its laws and physical contents. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet, if it is required, we can go further into the recorded writings to get a clearer picture, related to the finer details of the creation. However, trying to devise another alterative, will only open the door to speculation and fantasy. Which, has already occurred…

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2ndRateMind
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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Waterfall wrote: According to the bible:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
How can this be the beginning?
Well, to me it seems that we cannot have a God who exists in the three dimensions (or four if you count time) if we are not to run into the problem of infinite regress so often cited by our atheist friends. 'Everything has a cause, apart from the first cause, which is God' - 'OK but why does God not have a cause?' - 'He just doesn't, OK?' It's not a persuasive argument, to my mind.

But if one imagines God as existing outside the three (or four) dimensions, and creating them as a habitat for 'life, the universe, and everything' then the whole system begins to look a little more plausible. You can think of the universe in the same way as you think about a dog's kennel. It makes no sense to ask if heaven is above, and hell below, the creation kennel, because they are not 'places' in any three dimensional sense. Similarly, it makes no sense to ask if God existed before time, and will continue to exist after it. God does not inhabit time, in this view, which is what we mean by 'eternal', as opposed to 'everlasting'.

Of course, we evolved within the three spatial dimensions and time, so our senses are equipped to deal them, and our minds assume them to be the whole of reality, and are perhaps constrained by them to make it difficult or impossible to think in any other way. We are like puppies, who have never yet left the kennel. But if you can get the hang of idea, then that is why it makes no sense to talk about a cause before God, because to be the cause of an event involves preceding it in time. No time, in other words, no causes. And science tells us that energy, mass, space and time are all mutually dependent on each other*; the complete lack of any of these determines the complete lack of all the others, as well.

So, I guess the fundamental question facing us is: did all these mutually dependent features of the universe generate themselves spontaneously out of nothing, or were they generated by a God from other dimensions altogether? So far, the current state of the scientific art is that the answer one gives to these questions all seem to me to be a matter of preference, rather than any evidentially supported substance. But who knows, maybe one day humanity might arrive at a definitive conclusion.

Best wishes, 2RM.

*This is the corollary of Einstein's famous E=MC^2. Rearranging slightly, one gets Energy*Time^2 = Mass*Distance^2. Set any of these elements to 0, and all the others must be zero, also.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:18 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Waterfall
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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post by Waterfall »

[Replying to post 2 by FWI]

So you think God always have been awake? That God has an infinite record of actions? Or?

Do you think the bible is true? 6000 years of existence? What is true about the bible? The Hare Krishna movement also talks about creation...why is that not true? They say man has been here for more than 6000 years and are supported by old paintings and other stuff. Everybody who says man have been here for more than 6000 years are supported by old paintings and other stuff.

I am not bound to the bible.

They problely were inspired by other stories and came up with there own story.

Do you know anything about the Hare Krishna movement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jTjycyu7Dw

Is this not great?

It would be nice if there was somebody from this movement on the forum but I quess they are more interested in serving Krishna out there on the street? This is an invitation :D Lets talk about things...

What makes you happy?

It makes me happy to talk about things...

I would like to join the Hare Krishna movement but I do not know how this is possible...because they clame some things that I do not find logical.

To understand me you have to listen to music like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UaJAnnipkY

Is this not true for everybody?

It most be great to be God...but what about God´s children...you are all gods...thank you...but what does that mean?

Where are all the goddesses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb-B3lsgEfA

Lets wake humanity up:

Divine Insight made a song (drop of love? Or?) but it is gone from the thread (Deep thinking), so...maybe Divine Insight can come with it again...again...yes...we have to do things over and over until we get it ;-)

There is something great about the US of A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0lm58cet1g

But what about Denmark?

What have this country produced:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHCob76kigA

How can we build a better world?

I have to recover from the last 48 years...so many mistakes...but does it matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlY90lG_Fuw

Who am I?

Well...if I am not the DJ then who am I...lets try this combination:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHCob76kigA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC5ca6Hsb2Q

Now I will drink some more and just be alive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPJPFnesV4

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Waterfall wrote: According to the bible:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
How can this be the beginning?

What I am looking for is something like this:

In the beginning God was slepping and then (for some reason) God woke up and created a spirituel world.

How can that be the beginning? If God is a spirit, the " the spiritual world" is him...so how could his creating be the beginning of it?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Waterfall
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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post by Waterfall »

[Replying to post 3 by 2ndRateMind]

I am not sure that we cannot have time. If God has been slepping forever then time "started" when God woke up. If this is true then we can look back at an endless state. This would be like looking at a planet that has been spinning around forever. How else understand things? Time seems to be loosing its meaning before God woke up and created a clock.

Is God the creator of time? I am not sure. I would say yes...because God has made a clock...but...???

Waterfall
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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post by Waterfall »

[Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

I was just saying that God started out being in one state and then moved on to another state. In the first state there was no creation. There was someting but it was not the world that we now know.

You seems to have missed the other things. Maybe something had to unite before it was able to create.

Do you think like the Hare Krishna movement that God always has lived on a planet in the sprituel world? That God has an infinite record of actions? Or?

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2ndRateMind
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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Waterfall wrote: [Replying to post 3 by 2ndRateMind]

I am not sure that we cannot have time. If God has been slepping forever then time "started" when God woke up. If this is true then we can look back at an endless state. This would be like looking at a planet that has been spinning around forever. How else understand things?...
You must understand things in the way that makes best sense to you. But never stop learning, never stop trying to understand things better. That is what God gave us minds for; to use, as best we can, not just for petty, everyday matters, but also for those 'big' questions such as 'Why is there anything, and not just nothing?'

Best wishes, 2RM.
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FWI
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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post by FWI »

[Replying to post 4 by Waterfall]
Waterfall wrote:So you think God always have been awake? That God has an infinite record of actions? Or?


Being "awake or asleep" is a human concept and has no pertinence to God. Also, the record of actions that God has permitted to come about is limited to the inspiration that is given to certain human beings. Beyond that, we can only speculate.
Waterfall wrote:Do you think the bible is true? 6000 years of existence? What is true about the bible?


Yes and no...Therefore, I do not "worship" a book! However, the bible does not claim that the universe came to be about 6000 years ago. Where, the truth of the bible can only be given by inspiration from God or His only begotten Son. So, it is always best to go to the true source for this type of information…
Waterfall wrote:Do you know anything about the Hare Krishna movement:
Very little and I plan on keeping it that way. My religious belief system is the only one that's viable for myself. I desire no other…Hence, to consider it any other way, would be like being tossed "to and fro" by the wind.

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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Waterfall wrote: [Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

I was just saying that God started out being in one state and then moved on to another state. In the first state there was no creation.
What has creation to do with his "state"?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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