HITLER and TRUMP

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2Dbunk
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HITLER and TRUMP

Post #1

Post by 2Dbunk »

"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer reveals the history of Adoph Hitler’s efforts in a very, very negative way. But there are some (small amount?) who disagree. Likewise the Holocaust deniers claim that history was distorted by the victor’s claims of gross genocide. Most rational people that I know agree with the former – that Nazism is highly unethical!

I’m in the process of reading "Bonhoeffer" (published in 2011) and find that Eric Metaxas confirms much, if not all, of Shirer’s history. What's most disturbing is that many passages in the text show Hitler’s chaotic politics, mannerisms, and untruthfulness could be attributed to Donald Trump (just reverse their names).

Bonhoeffer was a theologian in Germany who was basically a fundamentalist (the established churches of the 1920s and 30s he found superficial when it came to celebrating the spirit of Jesus). Bonhoeffer quickly became disillusioned with Hitler’s manipulation of those main stream churches and the dictator's disdain for everything Christian while providing lip service to it so as to maintain his “religious� demeanor with the common folk (or he would not have survived in politics, duh).

I ask if anyone cares to debate the Donald’s intentions in making America great again in a (subtle?) but parallel way of Hitler’s efforts to make Germany great again? For that matter one might even throw in Trump’s parroting of Putin’s making Russia great again (Trump does seem to have an affinity for dictators – he even said he wouldn’t mind the opportunity to try that role).

One other question for debate: Why are evangelical Republicans and some Democrats lapping up his chaotic, untruthful soup? With all the indictments docketed the “swamp� seems to be getting deeper -- and thicker.

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Re: HITLER and TRUMP

Post #61

Post by Elijah John »

Danmark wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
PaulofSarja wrote:
Danmark wrote: He is an admitted [white] nationalist.
When did he admit that?
I doubt very much he ever did. Even CNN's Fareed Zakaria (no friend of President Trump) began his special on race with the disclaimer "Donald Trump is not a white nationalist." Underline the "not".

Yeah, the President is white, and he is a nationalist, but that is very different than saying that Trump is a "white nationalist".

"Nationalist" simply means a person wants to put their country first. Any American president should.

Whereas a "white nationalist" wants the country to be only for, or primarily for white people.

Quite a difference.
You make a good point, EJ; however, he IS an admitted nationalist as you agree AND can you make the case that he is not a racist? 'White nationalist" vs "Racist Nationalist" may be a distinction without a moral difference.
Being a nationalist does not necessitate one being a racist. It is only putting one's country's interest about those of other country.

Yes I do not believe Trump is a racist. The evidence I see to support the accusation is flimsy at best, imo. And if his detractors were a bit more fair and charitable, other, more benign explanations can be easily found for any of his questionable statements. But his detractors are bound and determined to think the worst of him.

And yes, Trump is white, and he is a nationalist, but that does not make him a "white nationalist". Not in the ways his enemies mean it, and in the context they use it. The way they use the phrase alludes to, and harkens back to malevolent groups such as the KKK, etc.

Trump would not have so much support if we thought he meant something sinister like that. Most of his supporters are NOT racist, nor are we "deplorables".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Danmark
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Re: HITLER and TRUMP

Post #62

Post by Danmark »

Elijah John wrote:
Being a nationalist does not necessitate one being a racist. It is only putting one's country's interest about those of other country.

Yes I do not believe Trump is a racist. The evidence I see to support the accusation is flimsy at best, imo. And if his detractors were a bit more fair and charitable, other, more benign explanations can be easily found for any of his questionable statements. But his detractors are bound and determined to think the worst of him.

And yes, Trump is white, and he is a nationalist, but that does not make him a "white nationalist". Not in the ways his enemies mean it, and in the context they use it. The way they use the phrase alludes to, and harkens back to malevolent groups such as the KKK, etc.

Trump would not have so much support if we thought he meant something sinister like that. Most of his supporters are NOT racist, nor are we "deplorables".
It states the obvious to say being a nationalist does not automatically make one a racist. I've never made that claim. However, the two frequently go together because in both cases the mind set is "MY [country, race, group] right or wrong." As I've pointed out, nationalism is NOT the same as patriotism. One can be a patriot and also a citizen of the world. This is what Christ did that differentiated him from tribal Judaism. You, somehow, believe Trump is not a racist, despite the evidence I set forth, and despite his own words. I am at a loss when anyone cannot recognize his racism. To me the evidence is clear.

In addition to my previous examples, he praised Norway and other Anglo-Saxon or 'white' countries, while he called African countries "shitholes." He'd get banned from this forum. He claimed a judge would be biased against him, solely because that judge had Mexican heritage. He has repeatedly called black Congress members, "low IQ" individuals. The statements he made about the 'Central Park 5' clearly fit in to the racist genre as he ignored evidence of their innocence. The list goes on and on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_vi ... nald_Trump

You have expressed your OPINION that he is not a racist. Do you have any support for that opinion?

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Re: HITLER and TRUMP

Post #63

Post by 2Dbunk »

[Replying to post 61 by Danmark]
You have expressed your OPINION that he [Trump] is not a racist. Do you have any support for that opinion?
I wish I would have put that as a POLL question!

I do believe with all that has been said and done, Trump has shown himself tp be a white supremacist. But if you ask him, he would emphatically answer that he is not! Nor is he anything other than a good Christian; nor is he anything less than the greatest president; nor that he is anything less than a genius (but doesn't know that airplanes were invented 125 years AFTER our Revolutionary War); that no one has more respect for women, etc., ad-nauseum.

One thing he is really good at is twisting his assertions into surreal scenarios. Michael Bloomberg called him a con-artist. Other people who I know who have been raised and lived in New York City say the same thing. And one thing he is really, really good at is offering up fake news. Yes EJ, you might be considered deplorable for not being able to see through the fog and smoke of this wannabe dictator!
What good is truth if its value is not more than unproven, handed-down faith?

One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley

Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.

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Post #64

Post by Danmark »

Some argue Trump is not a racist; however, it is increasingly clear he appeals to racist fears.
"My analysis indicates that economic status and attitudes do little to explain support for Donald Trump," he wrote for Vox last week. More to the point, "those who express more resentment toward African Americans, those who think the word 'violent' describes Muslims well, and those who believe President Obama is a Muslim have much more positive views of Trump compared with Clinton," Klinkner found.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... db2f33bb4e
https://www.vox.com/2016/6/2/11833548/d ... on-economy
The two groups who most reliably support Trump are Republicans and white evangelical Christians. This is no surprise because there is a long association between Christianity and racism. http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gab_racism.htm

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Re: HITLER and TRUMP

Post #65

Post by PaulofSarja »

Danmark wrote: [Replying to post 58 by PaulofSarja]

It is abundantly clear your definition of 'fake news' is "I disagree with it."
There are many types of fake news, but in our case, fake news is any reporting used to support a narrative.

We can take an example from your link. Where Vox reports
Vox wrote: In season two of The Apprentice, Trump fired Kevin Allen, a black contestant, for being overeducated. “You’re an unbelievably talented guy in terms of education, and you haven’t done anything,� Trump said on the show. “At some point you have to say, ‘That’s enough.’�
Trump would have said the same to a white contestant in the same situation, there is no racism here, yet it is made into a racist incident to better fit the predetermined narrative. If anything, it is racist for Vox to point out that Kevin Allen is black when it had nothing to do with what happened.

Another example from your link is from The New York Times
NYT wrote:He called some of those who marched alongside white supremacists in Charlottesville, Va., last August “very fine people.�
The truth is, he called some of those who peacefully protested the taking down of a Robert E Lee statue "very fine people.�

Big difference, but the first fits the narrative that the New York Times wants to push. That is why you can't cite the NYT as an authoritative source, everything they write is viewed through the lens of their favored narrative.

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Post #66

Post by marco »

Danmark wrote: [Replying to post 58 by PaulofSarja]

It is abundantly clear your definition of 'fake news' is "I disagree with it." Congratulations! You have something in common with Donnie Drumpf. :)


Moderator Comment


I think you have put your toe into incivility, Danmark. You are commendably skilled enough to avoid the red line.

Please review the Rules.


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Re: HITLER and TRUMP

Post #67

Post by Danmark »

PaulofSarja wrote:
Danmark wrote: [Replying to post 58 by PaulofSarja]

It is abundantly clear your definition of 'fake news' is "I disagree with it."
There are many types of fake news, but in our case, fake news is any reporting used to support a narrative.
Your ".... in our case, fake news is any reporting used to support a narrative." confirms what I wrote, that your definition of 'fake news' has nothing to do with whether a report is true or not. You call it fake if it supports a narrative you don't like; whereas "fake news" is 'news' that is contra factual.

To anyone sensitive to racist remarks, Trump's tweet today about 4 congresspeople of color, was clearly racist.
"So interesting to see 'Progressive' Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don't they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/15/politics ... index.html

One of his apologists today said Trump can't be racist since he has an Asian cabinet member. https://thinkprogress.org/pence-chief-o ... 9a8aafe1d/

This is the equivalent of the old "I have a black friend" argument. If a person can't see Trump's racist 'dog whistles' for what they are, a person of good will should question his (or her) own prejudices.

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Re: HITLER and TRUMP

Post #68

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 66 by Danmark]

Trump's statement applies to Omar and Somalia. It is a crime infested failed state. How is it racist for President Trump to point that out?

Interesting that Omar gets to say anti-Semitic statements and the Democrats do not censure her by name. Rather they only issue a broad, non-specific condemnation of anti-Semitism lumping it in with other forms of discrimination and prejudice. Watering down with broad generalities. Will Pelosi and ilk be as broad and non-specific in the impending resolution against Trump's remarks? Will they treat him with kid gloves as well? Doubtful. It was a rhetorical question.

Interesting how Pelosi so often cites her Catholic faith, yet wades into the dangerous territory of judging the Presidents motivations. "He want's to make the America white again". Sounds like false witness to me, as there is no evidence of that.

And regarding Oman and Talib, how can Muslim women be a part of a party that supports abortion on demand and homosexual marriage? Islam condemns both of those things. The Democrat party promotes them.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: HITLER and TRUMP

Post #69

Post by Danmark »

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 66 by Danmark]

Trump's statement applies to Omar and Somalia. It is a crime infested failed state. How is it racist for President Trump to point that out?

Interesting that Omar gets to say anti-Semitic statements and the Democrats do not censure her by name. Rather they only issue a broad, non-specific condemnation of anti-Semitism lumping it in with other forms of discrimination and prejudice. Watering down with broad generalities. Will Pelosi and ilk be as broad and non-specific in the impending resolution against Trump's remarks? Will they treat him with kid gloves as well? ...
EJ, one of the issues isn't just Trump being racist, but his racial insensitivity and that of others who do not 'see' his racism. I have to take you at your word that you do not see his statements, history, and actions as racist, from his 'birtherism' to his real estate practices. Today he said the four Congresswomen of color should go back where they came from (for 3 of the 4 that would be the United States.

EJ, I doubt you are a racist, but I GUARANTEE you that if you or anyone tells a person of color to "go back where you came from" you will be PERCEIVED to be a racist.

Another key fact one should keep in mind is that by one key definition racism can, by definition, only be practiced against minorities or disadvantaged groups. I am NOT saying that people of color cannot hold racial prejudice, but in the U.S. there is a history of racial discrimination against people of color. There is no such history of disadvantage for those of us who enjoy white privilege. BTW, I do NOT believe Omar's statements were anti Semitic, tho' some took them that way. In any event she apologized for that impression. Trump has tripled down.

Again, there is no question both he and anyone will come off as racist to most Americans and 99% of those of color for many of his statements and for the "go back" remark. Please, for your sake, you need to understand this... unless you actually want to be seen as a racist.

For example, ask an Asian friend if they have ever been told to 'go back where you came from' or even "Where are you from?" or "What are you?" Virtually all have been asked that and again, I guarantee you the one who asks those questions will be seen as racist or as racially insensitive. This is not a debating point. It is simply a fact.

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Post #70

Post by justme2 »

I don’t know if what I am about to say is a violation of the forum rules or if someone else has already said this; but I still have to say it anyway.
If one were to ask trump if he admired Hitler, my bet is he would say yes.

8-)

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