Jesus and God

[liamconnor]

The full title of this OP is Jesus' Deity, the CRITERIA

(I ask those members here who, like me, feel that one of our besetting 'sins' here is the failure to stick to the OP--please remind deviants to get back on track).

That is, this is not a debate about whether Jesus was God; that has been debated ad nauseum, and will continue to be so, so long as no criteria for deciding the situation is agreed upon.

So, the question for debate is, what criteria, or what methods, should be used in deciding the question?

For examples:

Should it be left to sheer logic, without consulting the bible?

Should the Bible be consulted? That is, does the opinion of the authors of the N.T. matter in deciding this issue?

If so, what in their writings would constitute evidence one way or another? For instance, must the explicit Hebraic divine name (in Hebrew characters) be predicated of Jesus (albeit, in Greek characters) in order to conclude that, say, Paul, believed Jesus was preexistent and eternal?


(I ask those members here who, like me, feel that one of our besetting 'sins' as a site here is the failure to stick to the OP--please remind deviants to get back on track).

[brianbbs67]

We only have the bible and historical writings to consult. Maybe I misunderstand your Question?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 2 by brianbbs67]

The question is how we decide whether Jesus was divine. What criteria do we use.

Your answer suggests that the beliefs of the ancient authors should be consulted; that is, if, say, Paul, believed Jesus was God, well then, Jesus was God. This of course means one has faith in Paul's belief.

not everyone would accept that. A cursory examination of this topic on this site will reveal that not all think this is adequate: many ask questions like, "If Jesus was God, how is it that he prays to God in the Bible?"

That kind of question appeals not to Scripture so much as to logic: How can God pray to himself? This has nothing to do with the opinion of the authors of the Bible: they make no attempts at Greek philosophy.

Thus even those who venerate the Scripture decide the issue of Jesus' divinity not, first and foremost, by Scripture. They argue thus:

1) The idea of Jesus being God is logically ridiculous.
2) Therefore, the authors of Scripture could not possibly advocate that position.
3)Therefore any passages which might seem to advocate that position in fact do not.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 2 by brianbbs67]

The question is how we decide whether Jesus was divine. What criteria do we use.

Your answer suggests that the beliefs of the ancient authors should be consulted; that is, if, say, Paul, believed Jesus was God, well then, Jesus was God. This of course means one has faith in Paul's belief.

not everyone would accept that.

If a person doesn't accept Paul's writing than they don't accept the Bible as being from God and not from man. It doesn't seem this is the forum to discuss a subject while denying the Bible, including what Paul wrote, as the word of God. If a person doesn't accept the writings of Paul than they don't accept God's Word. What Paul wrote was not putting his belief in writing because he wanted to. He wrote because he was told to write.

"Indeed, that is why we also thank God unceasingly, because when you received God’s word, which you heard from us [including Paul], you accepted it not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God." 1 Thess 2:13

If a person can't get behind the above scripture than a person is not looking to God for answers but to others and in themselves for answers. The Bible's answer to the question 'is Jesus God?' is, "But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God." 1 Cor 11:3. Yes, this was written by Paul but the idea the 'head of the Christ is God' didn't originate with Paul, refer back to 1 Thess 2:13 which would mean that 1 Cor 11:3 is the word of God and not the word of Christ, of which in turn means God Himself is saying Christ is in subjection to God. In fact I know of nowhere in the Bible that any writing was inspired from Christ Jesus. Jesus was recorded as saying in John 12:49, "For I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak." Clearly Jesus and his Father Jehovah are not equals. Nowhere in the Bible does the Christ command the Father, no even what to speak. If Jesus doesn't speak of his own accord why would Paul be given freedom to say whatever he wants and have it recorded in the Bible?

If a person doesn't want to believe the Bible than they are free to be like the rest of the world. Believing whatever they want. This is why I don't call myself a believer but a truth seeker because my primary goal is truth and not my beliefs. Like a trustworthy investigator, they go where the evidence leads and accept whatever that conclusion is and do not let their conclusion dictate the evidence in order to the lead the investigation to their own pre-made conclusion.

In answer to these questions

1) The idea of Jesus being God is logically ridiculous.
2) Therefore, the authors of Scripture could not possibly advocate that position.
3)Therefore any passages which might seem to advocate that position in fact do not.

1) Our logic shouldn't be our primary or only source for truth in an investigation. Evidence and eye-witnesses need to be examined.
2) There is only one Author of the scriptures and men are not the source of the Bible's information, which then nullifies the 3rd statement.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

Outside of the Bible and Church tradition, there is no reason to believe Jesus is God, that I can see anyway. If someone can prove Jesus is God from logic alone, please demonstrate.

And I don't know of any "Old" Testament evidence that Jesus is God. And even the New Testament is contradictory on the matter, at best. For every "I AM" statement, there seems to be another that Jesus is inferior to the Father, and therefore not God. Even within the same Gospel, (John 17.3, for example)

No, it isn't necessary for the Bible to say about Jesus "He is YHVH". Nor does he even say explicitly of himself, "I am YHVH". But Jesus never even says about himself "I am God" Nor does the NT ever explicitly come out and say "Jesus is God". Certainly not verbatim, in those three little words.

This in stark contrast to what the OT/Hebrew Bible says about YHVH. That YHVH is God, explicitly stated: (Isaiah 45.5, etc, etc)

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

And I don't know of any "Old" Testament evidence that Jesus is God. And even the New Testament is contradictory on the matter, at best. For every "I AM" statement, there seems to be another that Jesus is inferior to the Father, and therefore not God. Even within the same Gospel, (John 17.3, for example)

No, it isn't necessary for the Bible to say about Jesus "He is YHVH". Nor does he even say explicitly of himself, "I am YHVH". But Jesus never even says about himself "I am God" Nor does the NT ever explicitly come out and say "Jesus is God". Certainly not verbatim, in those three little words.

So your criterion is:

a) a kind of logic: that is, unless Jesus claims absolute equality with the father, he cannot be God.

b) exegetical: unless Scripture says explicitly "Jesus is God", then the case is closed.

Is that fair?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 2 by brianbbs67]

The question is how we decide whether Jesus was divine. What criteria do we use.

Your answer suggests that the beliefs of the ancient authors should be consulted; that is, if, say, Paul, believed Jesus was God, well then, Jesus was God. This of course means one has faith in Paul's belief.

not everyone would accept that. A cursory examination of this topic on this site will reveal that not all think this is adequate: many ask questions like, "If Jesus was God, how is it that he prays to God in the Bible?"

That kind of question appeals not to Scripture so much as to logic: How can God pray to himself? This has nothing to do with the opinion of the authors of the Bible: they make no attempts at Greek philosophy.

Thus even those who venerate the Scripture decide the issue of Jesus' divinity not, first and foremost, by Scripture. They argue thus:

1) The idea of Jesus being God is logically ridiculous.
2) Therefore, the authors of Scripture could not possibly advocate that position.
3)Therefore any passages which might seem to advocate that position in fact do not.

Well the only criteria we have is the bible and experience. In my experience, examining the whole body of work, new to old, Christ is not God but the messiah(although if he was, it would not bother me a bit). Paul even backs this up. He is misread a lot though. Either way it is, Jesus is God or of God, it is not clearly defined in the scripture beyond a shadow of a doubt. This shouldn't be a point of discontention between believers. What should be is how we live. Do we live in the way of Christ ? How did Christ live and what should we be doing? These are the big ones for followers of Christ.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 2 by brianbbs67]

The question is how we decide whether Jesus was divine. What criteria do we use.

Your answer suggests that the beliefs of the ancient authors should be consulted; that is, if, say, Paul, believed Jesus was God, well then, Jesus was God. This of course means one has faith in Paul's belief.

not everyone would accept that. A cursory examination of this topic on this site will reveal that not all think this is adequate: many ask questions like, "If Jesus was God, how is it that he prays to God in the Bible?"

That kind of question appeals not to Scripture so much as to logic: How can God pray to himself? This has nothing to do with the opinion of the authors of the Bible: they make no attempts at Greek philosophy.

Thus even those who venerate the Scripture decide the issue of Jesus' divinity not, first and foremost, by Scripture. They argue thus:

1) The idea of Jesus being God is logically ridiculous.
2) Therefore, the authors of Scripture could not possibly advocate that position.
3)Therefore any passages which might seem to advocate that position in fact do not.

Well the only criteria we have is the bible and experience. In my experience, examining the whole body of work, new to old, Christ is not God but the messiah(although if he was, it would not bother me a bit). Paul even backs this up. He is misread a lot though. Either way it is, Jesus is God or of God, it is not clearly defined in the scripture beyond a shadow of a doubt. This shouldn't be a point of discontention between believers. What should be is how we live. Do we live in the way of Christ ? How did Christ live and what should we be doing? These are the big ones for followers of Christ.

When examining scripture for the answer, what are you looking for exactly? An explicit statement saying, "JEsus is God"?

Some biblical scholars are less stringent; they point out N.T. passages in which O.T. texts (whose subject is clearly YHWH) are applied to Jesus. They point out that Paul will translate an O.t. passage using Greek kurios for Hebrew YHWH, and within the same verse call Jesus kurios.

[JJ50]

Moderator removed one-line, non-contributing post. The Bible is considered authoritative in this sub forum.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

And I don't know of any "Old" Testament evidence that Jesus is God. And even the New Testament is contradictory on the matter, at best. For every "I AM" statement, there seems to be another that Jesus is inferior to the Father, and therefore not God. Even within the same Gospel, (John 17.3, for example)

No, it isn't necessary for the Bible to say about Jesus "He is YHVH". Nor does he even say explicitly of himself, "I am YHVH". But Jesus never even says about himself "I am God" Nor does the NT ever explicitly come out and say "Jesus is God". Certainly not verbatim, in those three little words.

So your criterion is:

a) a kind of logic: that is, unless Jesus claims absolute equality with the father, he cannot be God.

b) exegetical: unless Scripture says explicitly "Jesus is God", then the case is closed.

Is that fair?

Yes, and it doesn't, so he's not. Also, if the NT has any credibility problems*, even if it explicitly stated that Jesus was God, (which it doesn't) we would have to question claims for his Divinity.

And without rock solid proof from the New Testament that Jesus is God, or rock solid proof that the NT is infallible, there is simply no reason to believe that Jesus is God. As far as I can tell anyway.

---

* (Matthew 16.28 is just one of many examples of this)