If Jesus is God...

[Elijah John]

If Jesus is God, why didn't he spend any time or energy demonstrating this claim, or attempting to convince people?

Jesus didn't go around preaching the doctrine that he was God, nor did he attempt to prove it.

Instead, Jesus preached the Father and His mercy, repentance and the Kingdom of God. And he went around healing people. But the healings do not prove that Jesus is God, if they actually happened.

The notion that a man is God is a mighty big claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Where's the extraordinary evidence?

[ElCodeMonkey]

Jesus was no sort of god just a flawed human like the rest of us.

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[tigger2]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

((Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.))
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…� - 20:31.

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God! If they had heard this, there would have been no need for false witnesses to have Jesus stoned to death.
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I believe any objective observer would admit that the answers to these simple scriptural challenges should be abundantly, clearly, indisputably available if the trinity (or ‘Jesus is God’) worshipers are correct.

To look for rare instances of unclear, disputed scriptures which have to be interpreted to fit a trinitarian concept (developed long after the death of the last Apostle and the completion of Scripture) and convince yourself that they are "proofs" is a tragic error.

God has always existed as God and, therefore, His people should have always known who He was and worshiped him in truth.

To believe that God withheld this information from his people (or made it something to be interpreted from unclear, incomplete references) from the beginning (and throughout all Scriptures) is a tragic error.

[tigger2]

I want to apologize to EJ for apparently putting the 'kiss of death' on his discussion by adding my post above. If a moderator would remove my post and post it as a new discussion, I would appreciate it.

[brianbbs67]

Christ never claimed to be God. He deferred all honor and prayer to God alone. Being of the same nature or thought or resemblance isn't proof either. Could Christ be the first undercover boss? Sure, but he never claims it. That should tell everyone everything.

[Checkpoint]

I want to apologize to EJ for apparently putting the 'kiss of death' on his discussion by adding my post above. If a moderator would remove my post and post it as a new discussion, I would appreciate it.

I encourage you to simply copy that post and create a new thread with it.

But I suggest you also add a short intro.

[Checkpoint]

If Jesus is God, why didn't he spend any time or energy demonstrating this claim, or attempting to convince people?

Jesus didn't go around preaching the doctrine that he was God, nor did he attempt to prove it.

Instead, Jesus preached the Father and His mercy, repentance and the Kingdom of God. And he went around healing people. But the healings do not prove that Jesus is God, if they actually happened.

The notion that a man is God is a mighty big claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.



Where's the extraordinary evidence?

Indeed.

Such evidence is lacking.

But his opponents read it into some things he said, just as many believers still do today.

Instead of confirming their false claim, he confounded it by setting the record straight.

John 10:

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?�

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,� they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.�

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods� ’? 35 If He called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as His very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.�

"God's Son", not "God the Son".

[onewithhim]

If Jesus is God, why didn't he spend any time or energy demonstrating this claim, or attempting to convince people?

Jesus didn't go around preaching the doctrine that he was God, nor did he attempt to prove it.

Instead, Jesus preached the Father and His mercy, repentance and the Kingdom of God. And he went around healing people. But the healings do not prove that Jesus is God, if they actually happened.

The notion that a man is God is a mighty big claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Where's the extraordinary evidence?

Excellent point. If Jesus was God, that would've been the most startling revelation to the Jewish people that they could imagine. Jesus would've had to do some pretty skillful convincing that he was God, right up front and perfectly clear! Yet he is silent on this "basic doctrine of Christianity." If it is true, he would've made it abundantly crystal clear.

Instead, there are a handful of verses that have been altered to seem to show that he claimed to be God, ignoring the context and dismissing surrounding verses. That and the fact that men have REMOVED THE DIVINE NAME and replaced it with "LORD" in all 7,000 places that the Tetragrammaton occurs in the original language manuscripts. This REALLY confuses people! They wonder, "Who is the LORD?"

Thankfully, the King James Version leaves it there in 4 cases: Psalm 83:18; Exodus 6:3; Isaiah 26:4 and Isaiah 12:2. Why they left God's name alone in those instances and not the almost 7,000 other instances is perplexing.

Young's Literal Translation is one of a handful that leaves the Tetragrammaton where it should be in the Old Testament.

With the Divine Name left where it should be, people get a clear picture of just who God, the Almighty, is. One example is at Isaiah 61:1,2 where we see God Almighty anointing the Messiah, Jesus. (Jesus says that these verses apply to him...the Messiah; Luke 4:17-21.)

"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me, because Jehovah did anoint me to proclaim tidings to the humble, he sent me to bind the broken of heart, to proclaim to captives liberty, and to bound ones an opening of bands. To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Jehovah, and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all mourners." (Isaiah 61, 1,2, Young's Literal Translation)

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 8 by onewithhim]

This is an aside. But, what does Young's do with David's psalm and the "lord said to my lord"?

[Divine Insight]

The notion that a man is God is a mighty big claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Where's the extraordinary evidence?

Where is the extraordinary evidence for any of this entire theology?

Where is the extraordinary evidence that the original God of the Bible exists?

Where is the extraordinary evidence that Jesus was born of a vigin?

Where is the extraordinary evidence that Jesus was the Son of God?

Where is the extraordinary evidence that Jesus was even a profit of a God?

Where is the extraordinary evidence that Jesus actually died and rose from the dead?

Why single out the claim of the divinity of Jesus as requiring extraordinary evidence when nothing else in this entire theology has any extraordinary evidence to back up those claims either?

As far as I can see there isn't any extraordinary evidence for any of it.

All I hear from Christians is that we have to believe on faith precisely because there is no compelling evidence for any of it.

And that includes both Jesus and Yahweh.

Why demand extraordinary evidence for Jesus but not for Yahweh?