"I forgive you but SOMEONE has to pay!"

[Elijah John]

If someone says "I forgive you, but someone has to pay, how about my innocent Son?" Would that really be forgiveness?

Does true mercy require "payment"? If so, how is it still mercy?

If a loan is forgiven, does the creditor require payment from someone else?

Isn't God capable of forgiving the contrite, without "payment"?

[RightReason]

[Replying to Elijah John]

If someone says "I forgive you, but someone has to pay, how about my innocent Son?" Would that really be forgiveness?

It would not only be forgiveness, but total love as well. When one gives another his most prized possession/EVERYTHING, there is no greater love.


Sure, God could have forgiven us, as any creditor can forgive a debt, but He not only did that, He turned around and gave us all that was His as well. He paid for the debt Himself with what He valued the most to show us just how much He valued us.

Does true mercy require "payment"? If so, how is it still mercy?

When something has been damaged, reparation is necessary. If you hit a baseball through my window the window is now broken. I can forgive you, but that doesn’t fix the window. If I wanted I could say I forgive you, but now I demand you fix my window, but if I really wanted to show love and mercy, I might sell my prized possession -- my favorite autographed baseball in order to pay for the window you broke. I would assume you would recognize not only did I not have to do that, but how beautiful it would be if I did and perhaps you would even learn to do similar for those who have trespassed against you.

If a loan is forgiven, does the creditor require payment from someone else?

No, which would make it all the more merciful if the creditor did. If he gave up something of his own of great value (which if we are talking about God and have understanding/knowledge of the Trinity it means God would in actuality be giving Himself. Jesus dying on the cross for us is God suffering and making reparation for all our sins). That would be the ultimate mercy to be shown from the creditor.

Isn't God capable of forgiving the contrite, without "payment"?

God could do anything He wants any way He wants. If we believe God to be all loving, all knowing, all just, Lord of Lord, and King of Kings, then we would recognize that the way He did something is befitting with His divine dignity. Wouldn’t you agree?


What an incredible way for God to show us how much He valued and loved us? He gave us the most dear thing to Him to us – His only son. To have given anything less would have been just that – less. God gave Himself so that we could follow in His footsteps and give ourselves fully – holding nothing back.

Incredible.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by RightReason]

So in effect, God sacrificed Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite.

Does that make any sense at all? Why wouldn't God simply forgive those who repent and seek His mercy?

After all, God created Heaven and Earth by decree, with a word. Is forgiving the contrite more difficult for God than creating the Universe?

Also, God expects us to forgive freely, 70 x 7. And without demanding blood or payment.. Are you saying God cannot do as He instructs us to do? So He's asking more of us, in effect, than He asks of Himself?

[2timothy316]

"Honest balances and scales are from Jehovah; All the weights in the bag are his doing." Proverbs 16:11

“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

"Look! These are just the fringes of his ways; Only a faint whisper has been heard of him! So who can understand his mighty thunder?� Job 26:14

"The sons of men are a mere breath, The sons of mankind are a delusion. When laid together on the scales, they are lighter than a mere breath." Psalm 62:9

The Bible is clear, that Jehovah is the source of justice and if He wants payment then that is His choice. Who are the sons of men to doubt His justice? Our judgments don't even weigh anything on God's scales of justice.

I can't help but think if Adam was let off the hook. Where does it stop? Let one off you have to let them all off. Including the most evil people. Let the evil people off the hook then you'd have to let evil spirits off the hook. When does Jehovah become the God of absolute justice and righteousness? When we decide?

[ttruscott]

If a loan is forgiven, does the creditor require payment from someone else?

If you forgive a loan of $5, then you are out the $5 while the person has had the pleasures and profits of that $5. To forgive a debt, someone must lose out. It is not so straight forward when the debt is a death, not the loss of $5 but the principle holds...someone must be out a life for the debtor to be freed from his debt of owing a life. This is too clumsy, debt is the wrong word.

The word debt seems to be the problem when the word ransom would seem to be a more accurate description: Galatians 3:13 Christ paid the price to free us from the curse that the laws in Moses’ Teachings bring by becoming cursed instead of us.

paid the price: Strong's 1805. exagorazó
exagorazó: to buy up, i.e. ransom, fig. to rescue from loss
Usage: I buy out, buy away from, ransom; I purchase out, buy, redeem, choose.

The law (GOD's attribute of Justice) held for a death; Christ gave that death so we would not be held by the law any longer. Much has been written to explain this...a repetition of those books is not for here.

[RightReason]

[Replying to Elijah John]

So in effect, God sacrificed Himself to Himself . . .

Yes!

Does that make any sense at all?

\

It does to anyone who has been in love. It is in dying to ourselves that we truly become alive. It is in giving that we receive. The ultimate act of love is giving of yourself.

Why wouldn't God simply forgive those who repent and seek His mercy?

Which demonstrates more mercy and love . . . a husband who forgives his wife for some transgression against him by simply telling her, “I forgive you.� Or a husband who says, “I forgive you and I will gladly suffer any pain for you to prove I have always loved you, will always love you, and all I have has and will always be yours. You mean the world to me and give myself to you completely.�

After all, God created Heaven and Earth by decree, with a word. Is forgiving the contrite more difficult for God than creating the Universe?

Hmmm . . . kind of like a parent thinking they can buy their child’s love? Getting $20 bucks from Dad is cool, but even the kid knows that doesn’t really cost Dad much nor does it prove he loves me.

Also, God expects us to forgive freely, 70 x 7. And without demanding blood or payment.. Are you saying God cannot do as He instructs us to do? So He's asking more of us, in effect, than He asks of Himself?

He expects us to give freely because He has shown us what that means. Like I said, He didn’t have to do what He did, but He gave entirely and fully of Himself. We are called to imitate Him.

I'm thinking you don't fully grasp the fullness of God's actions.

[marco]

It would not only be forgiveness, but total love as well. When one gives another his most prized possession/EVERYTHING, there is no greater love.

Theology isn't the best friend of common sense, RightReason. Can we rid ourselves of one wrong by offering another? Lot tried:

Lot responded “Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof� (v. 8). [/quote]

Sure, God could have forgiven us, as any creditor can forgive a debt, but He not only did that, He turned around and gave us all that was His as well.

One can readily understand acts of love and sacrifice.... Fr. Kolbe, for example. Offering one's son to be crucified as an act of love and forgiveness may be theologically impressive; to those that live on Earth it is hideous, as of course was the demand made to Abraham to kill his son. One can accept that "no greater love hath any man than that he lay down his life for a friend," but the ingredients of the Redemption story involve a dad offering a son. That is another story.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I believe Tim and ttruscot are absolutely right. It's a question of debt and as such SOMEONE has to pay for it to disappear. Doing nothing doesn't wipe out a debt, only payment can do that.

The principle of RANSOM is absolutely fundamental to the Christian faith.

It is therefore understandable that others find it incomprehensible, inacceptable or even repulsive. But for us it rests at the heart of the Christian faith. It is this, that Jesus died to save mankind, not the trinity, which unites all Christians, for it is this that saves humanity and ensures the stability of all of Gods creation.

In short, the ransom is the greatest expression of Gods love!


(Which is why I know what all Jehovah's Witness will be doing on Friday evening).




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[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 2 by RightReason]

So in effect, God sacrificed Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite.

Does that make any sense at all?

Your 'non-sense' is based upon a bias against the Trinity. One of the Divine Persons of the Trinity accepted the job of dying to redeem the chosen elect from the legal obligation of eternal death for their self chosen sinfulness.

GOD didn't sacrifice HIMself; One of the Divine persons of GOD accepted to be sacrificed to fulfill GOD's (the Unity of Divine Persons) Justice against those who had earned judgement but who were under a promise of salvation by their faith in the Divine Saviour and so never condemned.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 2 by RightReason]

So in effect, God sacrificed Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite.

No. Jesus volunteered to pay what was owed to His Father. Why? 1. Because he loves his Father. (John 14:25-31) And his Father loves the world. (John 3:16)

Does that make any sense at all? Why wouldn't God simply forgive those who repent and seek His mercy?

We can repent for our own sins. But no sinful human can pay for Adam's sin. It's Adam's sin that needs forgiveness. Good fruit can't come from a bad tree. (Matthew 7:18, Luke 6:43)

After all, God created Heaven and Earth by decree, with a word. Is forgiving the contrite more difficult for God than creating the Universe?

This is correct. Do you think it would be a good idea if He suddenly decided that the law of gravity doesn't need to be enforced for even just a minute? It's not a matter of difficulty or power, it's a matter of what is right and just.

Also, God expects us to forgive freely, 70 x 7. And without demanding blood or payment.. Are you saying God cannot do as He instructs us to do? So He's asking more of us, in effect, than He asks of Himself?

Yes indeed, we are not to avenge ourselves. Yet those that do us wrong may still have to pay, just not to us. Jehovah has said, "Vengeance is mine. I will repay." (Deuteronomy 32:35, Hebrews 10:30, Romans 12:19)

"Be assured that a wicked person will not go unpunished." Proverbs 11:21