Is "ORIGINAL SIN" a misleading and unnecessary con

[2Dbunk]

This Biblical story suggests that Adam and Eve squandered eternal life and bliss in the Garden of Eden when they ate fruit from the forbidden apple tree – the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. This resulted in the death sentence of all humans the way I understand the story. That is how we all became sinners -- religionists say: “original sin!�

Okay, but here’s the rub: Let’s say Adam and Eve DID NOT eat of that fateful tree, and lived in the Garden for many years without knowing sin. Their children, Cain and Able were born, also without that knowledge, as the second generation of humanity. If Adam and Eve lived all that time without doing anything wrong (what are the chances of that?), then could the second generation perfectly avoid the urge to do some evil thing or two? If so, what about the third generation, or the fourth? As the offspring multiplied, the chances of doing evil would grow exponentially, eventually causing the family to be ousted from the Garden.

Well, we are told the second generation violated God’s law with the famous murder of Able by Cain – probably an event that would have justified eviction from the Garden. But wait, murder was not yet defined as a sin since no one yet had knowledge of evil – that would come later from God’s deliverance of the stone tablets to Moses containing the Ten Commandments . Confusing isn't it?

Probably by this time some of the offspring may have eaten the forbidden fruit and the family would have been evicted from Eden (you know how kids are, doing the opposite of what their parents say). I guess what I’m trying to say is that the knowledge of good and evil was inevitable, if not with Adam and Eve, then with the next generation, or the next, and so on.

So why the big deal over Eve’s temptation? Did the writers of the Bible mean-fully find this as a way of suppressing women. They were already condemned as �unclean� because of their monthly menstrual ordeal, but I guess that wasn’t enough for the male scribes who wanted to ensure male supremacy for the ages. Does anyone care to comment?

[ttruscott]

HIS Righteousness that HE cannot create sinners...

God never did and never will create sinners. He creates men who chose, in Adam, to sin. God is not the author of sin.

Amen! From your lips to the ears of the orthodox who claim that we are created on earth and are made to be sinners by being forced to be humans in Adam with no choice and no choice to be evil, sigh.

...the more Biblical contention that we lived pre-earth...

I'd be interested to see you cite biblical support of this claim.

Actually it is a lot of hard work since there is no one verse proof of PCE anymore than there is any verse at all that makes it impossible to claim we had a pre-earth experience. It is a full theology all interlaced in a system of logical Bible interpretation like all the Church's have but in support of our PCE. Would you expect that Calvinism or Catholicism support all their doctrine in one or two verses?

I use over 100 verses in the full (book length) exegesis of the bible as supporting our pce and without the explanation of how they all fit into a theological whole logically, no one sees the relevance of them at all, sigh.

That apology out of the way, I'd love to take you thru the main points and how they are supported by the bible, verse by verse. Most people look at one or two verses, see how they have two interpretations available to them then say, "Neh, I'll stick with orthodoxy." and stop there without even trying to understand the cohesive nature of the theology.

...and by our own free will chose to put our faith in HIM (becoming elect) or against HIM (non-elect)...

So we elect ourselves? That's far from the case; it would make God not sovereign over His own creation, which is very unbiblical. Also, in saying this, ttruscott, you're making faith a work, which is also very unbiblical; saving faith is itself a gift of God (Ephesians 2).

...I never said we elect ourselves. I said that we were elected by GOD due to a merit HE found in us when we chose to put our faith in HIM as our GOD and our Saviour. The verbiage of orthodoxy is compelling, isn't it...

saving faith is itself a gift of God (Ephesians 2)

expresses the point I just finished making in the post you responded to in that SAVING faith implies that they are sinners already and then the rules for salvation are put back into the world pre-sin, as if they should be applied to election and not just to salvation as if election and salvation are the same thing!

How insidious this is that I can predict the errors people will make because I have seen them so often and even after being warned of the fallacy, the impulse to follow in the footsteps of the fallacy is irresistable.

[2Dbunk]

[Replying to post 8 by PinSeeker]

I think I see your reasoning -- passing on Eve's seduction to Adam who acted on it.

Then why were women cursed for all eternity to suffer inordinate pain in childbirth if Adam was the deliverer of death and evil?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 8 by PinSeeker]

I think I see your reasoning -- passing on Eve's seduction to Adam who acted on it.

Nope. Try again if you want. I think what I said was pretty clear...

[EBA]

God never did and never will create sinners.

Hi PinSeeker, I would disagree with that.

God certainly created Adam and Eve to sin. Not only that, but he set them up to do so.

[PinSeeker]

...the orthodox who claim that we are created on earth and are made to be sinners by being forced to be humans in Adam with no choice and no choice to be evil, sigh.
Well, people who are not born yet can't choose anything because... they don't yet exist. But as the federal head of the human race, Adam and Eve made that choice and fell into a sinful state, which then we all inherit -- it is imputed to us. Therefore, we need a Savior, whose righteousness can be impurted to us, thus accomplishing our salvation.

...the more Biblical contention that we lived pre-earth...

I'd be interested to see you cite biblical support of this claim.

Actually it is a lot of hard work since there is no one verse proof of PCE anymore than there is any verse at all that makes it impossible to claim we had a pre-earth experience...

I didn't necessarily ask for a single verse. Make the case, if you think you can; I'd like to see it.

It is a full theology all interlaced in a system of logical Bible interpretation like all the Church's have but in support of our PCE.

Understood, but we're just talking about one aspect of it: pre-earth experience of humans. Surely there's a passage -- or even two or three understood together -- that you can point to that show(s) it is a reality. Let's hear it.

Would you expect that Calvinism or Catholicism support all their doctrine in one or two verses?

Well, I'm a Calvinist, as my usergroups attest. I can point to several biblical proof-texts for any one aspect of it. And that's what I'm asking of you.

I'd love to take you thru the main points and how they are supported by the bible, verse by verse. Most people look at one or two verses, see how they have two interpretations available to them then say, "Neh, I'll stick with orthodoxy." and stop there without even trying to understand the cohesive nature of the theology.

Great! Try me.

I never said we elect ourselves.

Ah, but that's the logical result of your position. And it makes it untenable.

I said that we were elected by GOD due to a merit HE found in us when we chose to put our faith in HIM as our GOD and our Saviour.

Yes, that's very Arminian, and wrong. If it were true, God's grace -- unmerited favor -- would not really be grace at all. It would be merited because of the self-manufacture -- the human work -- of faith, which can't be self-manufactured, as it is the gift of God.

The verbiage of orthodoxy is compelling, isn't it...

If you were to get it right, you might find it so, yes.

How insidious this is that I can predict the errors people will make because I have seen them so often and even after being warned of the fallacy, the impulse to follow in the footsteps of the fallacy is irresistable.

But that's just it; the errors you claim people make are misstated. All you're showing is that if you want to believe something bad enough, no matter how wrong it may be, you can make it sound plausible by making the opposing view a caricature of what it really is -- even if you do it unknowingly, which seems to be the case.

[PinSeeker]

God never did and never will create sinners.

Hi PinSeeker, I would disagree with that.

That's cool; I'm fine with anybody disagreeing with me...

God certainly created Adam and Eve to sin. Not only that, but he set them up to do so.

Nope. He created them with the ability to sin. And He told them not to, but they disobeyed.

But I understand your position; there's no point in arguing about it. Peace.

[EBA]

Nope. He created them with the ability to sin. And He told them not to, but they disobeyed.

Did God created Satan to tempt them?

[ttruscott]

God never did and never will create sinners.

Hi PinSeeker, I would disagree with that.

God certainly created Adam and Eve to sin. Not only that, but he set them up to do so.

Setting them up to sin (which is obvious) is NOT the same as creating them to sin!

Though it is anti-orthodox, please consider that IF A&E were created innocent before the physical universe and became sinners before the creation of the physical universe and so were sinners when they were SOWN INTO THE WORLD (Matt 13:36-39) but as it is written, they were not ashamed of their sin, their nakedness, because they refused to accept that their sin was indeed sinful,

THEN HE chose to open their eyes to their nakedness (metaphor for sin) which they had before they ate, by the method of putting them under the command not to eat...since the law is given merely to convict of sin, Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin. and is NOT for the righteous but for lawbreakers, 1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful..., a verse applied to everyone but Adam and Eve, but that can't be due to the created on earth earth bias, eh PinSeeker?

Thus setting them up to sin is a necessary part of opening their eyes to their need for repentance (to become ashamed) and to turn to their Saviour and there is NO necessity to imagine that HE needed them to become evil for any reason - even hardcore sovereignty - but gave them the law to prove to them they could not keep it and so prove they were already sinful.

[PinSeeker]

Did God create Satan to tempt them?

Well, Scripture tells us that Satan left the creative hand of God in a perfect state and remained that way until sin (iniquity; self-generated pride) was found in him (Ezekiel 28). So I would say no.

[polonius]

Did God create Satan to tempt them?

Well, Scripture tells us that Satan left the creative hand of God in a perfect state and remained that way until sin (iniquity; self-generated pride) was found in him (Ezekiel 28). So I would say no.

RESPONSE: And you always believe what scripture tells you, right?

How about the required belief in Ps 104 that the sun revolves around the earth. Do you believe that's true?