Christ's Crucifixion and Death

[rikuoamero]

According to Christianity, the man named Jesus Christ (believed by some Christians to be God incarnate) paid the ransom price for the rebellious sin of Adam and Eve. That with Christ's death, God is now able to forgive humanity.

I'd like to explore this. So let's picture the scene. Humanity exists in large numbers on a planet called Earth. God sends his son (or himself) in the personage of Jesus Christ, to walk and talk among crowds of Jews and Gentiles for a handful of years. Eventually, what he does annoys the orthodox Jewish priests, who arrest him, bring him before Pilate who says the priests can execute him if they want. Jesus is then taken to a hill where he is nailed to a piece of wood.

I'd like to ask Christians what exactly changes regarding God and humanity in the minute before Jesus is nailed to the cross, versus the minute after he is nailed. What changes before he takes his last breath, and after. What exactly has been done? All I can see is a man, innocent according to his supporters, being unjustly executed. In previous threads, I excoriated Christians who said they would not prevent the crucifixion and execution, who said they would be willing to benefit from it. So I'd like to ask - what exactly is happening here, in these key moments, these key seconds of time?
Did humanity change? Learn, grow? Did God?

EDIT: Please answer as though you and I are standing there in the crowd on that hill.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

The way immediately became open for God to legitimately eradicate adamic sin and death and offer humans the opportunity to live forever. Jesus by dying faithful as a perfect, sinless human fulfilled a crucial commission, one on which the future of all humanity hung in the balance. He settled the issues raised by Satan in the garden of Eden, namely that a perfect human can remain perfectly faithful to Jehovah Gods souvereignty despite pressure and thus vindicated his Fathers name.

Okay, so here is my question.
Before Jesus got nailed to the cross (or pierced, as you JWs believe), how is it God was or is seemingly incapable of doing the above, to "legitimately eradicate Adamic sin and death and offer humans the opportunity to live forever"?
Was God waiting on tenterhooks for the death, the violence? Could he have done all these things only via a violent death? What if Jesus had simply died of old age, an accident or a disease?
What is it about some devout Jewish priests executing an innocent man that means humans can now be offered the opportunity to live forever?

[JehovahsWitness]

... how is it God was or is seemingly incapable of doing the above, to "legitimately eradicate Adamic sin and death and offer humans the opportunity to live forever"?

God capable of doing anything but he will not break his own law or violate his own standards. In Eden the standard was clear, the wages of sin is death, sin must lead to death, that's "the rule".

The only way to "get around this" without being accused of double standards (which would ultimately underneath the principles of God's sovereignty) is if someone else were to die for those condemned. In this way sin would be paid for by death, as originally mandated, but not the death of the sinner, the death of someone willing to take the sinners place.

It's upon this basis that God can wipe out the effect of Adamic sin.

What if Jesus had simply died of old age, an accident or a disease? Jesus was a perfect man, he would never have died of disease, or old age. I suppose he could have died in an accident but no, Jesus had to offer his life as a willing sacrifice for the ransom to be valid.

For details see LINK here:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 847#909847



JW




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Could God not have ignored the original sin ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 933#848933




NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[1213]

…Please outline what exactly you mean by "forgive". …

I have understood it means that person is pardoned. In this case it means, if person has sin and would deserve the penalty of sin, the judgment is cancelled.

…the wages of sin is death...
Romans 6:23

…So what happened in terms of God and humanity in those crucial moments between Jesus being nailed to the cross and exhaling his last breath?

I think it can be read from the Bible.

Interesting thing about the death of Jesus is this:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

And reason why he came on earth is this:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

He said to them, "Let's go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this reason I came forth."
Mark 1:38

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]

The only way to "get around this" without being accused of double standards (which would ultimately underneath the principles of God's sovereignty)

Let's say God had done this. Would you, or any other JWs, or any other branch of his religion, have said anything negative about it? For all the talk I hear from Christians about how God is supreme, how one is to obey God and whatnot...I sure do also hear a lot of talk about how God can't do this, can't do that.
Oh and I think you meant to say undermine, instead of underneath.

Jesus was a perfect man, he would never have died of disease, or old age.

Upon this I have to cast my doubt.

I suppose he could have died in an accident but no, Jesus had to offer his life as a willing sacrifice for the ransom to be valid.

And he couldn't have asked God to simply take away his immortality?

Also you seem to have ignored the question, the main question, of just what it is about devout Jewish priests executing an innocent man that now means humanity can now be offered everlasting life. Even if I were to agree with you (and I honestly wouldn't) about Jesus offering to die to pay the ransom, what is it about this end being meted out with violence that now means all of humanity can benefit from it? Why not simply be born, Jesus prays to God "I offer my life" at some point and God takes it?

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]

In this way sin would be paid for by death, as originally mandated, but not the death of the sinner, the death of someone willing to take the sinners place.

But Jesus didn't stay dead. Why couldn't the same principle be applied to humans?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]

In this way sin would be paid for by death, as originally mandated, but not the death of the sinner, the death of someone willing to take the sinners place.

But Jesus didn't stay dead. ...

Would Jesus need to "stay dead" for the Ransom to be valid?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#875280

Why couldn't the same principle be applied to humans?

No human descendant of Adam could pay the ransom because the ransom had to be equal to that which caused of the problem. The principle is encapsulated in the ultimate standard for judgement of like for like, "eye for eye....life for life". Mankind was lost due to the reckless act of a perfect man, the ransom price thus had to be set as one perfect man but all humans are descendents of Adam and born imperfect. As the bible explains:

PSALMS 49:7 -

None of them can ever redeem a brother or give to God a ransom for him
(The ransom* price for their life is so precious That it is always beyond their reach)
That he should live forever ...

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Does Almighty GOD have to die for mankind since the original sin was against God?
viewtopic.php?p=979715#p979715

To what did the ransom correspond?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p852214

Why would GOD dying for Adam's sin violate the principle of equality of recompense?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p959845

Why would animal sacrifice not suffice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 05#p848905

How is Jesus death equal to Adam's crime of disobedience?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 54#p959854

How can we say that Jesus' torturous death was the equavalent of Adam's act of disobedience?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 40#p852240

For more details please go to other posts related to...

ADAM &EVE, ORIGINAL SIN and ...RANSOM

[dio9]

[Replying to post 19 by dio9]

but weren't crosses the Roman way to execute people like Jesus?

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 26 by JehovahsWitness]

No human descendant of Adam could pay the ransom because the ransom had to be equal to that which caused of the problem.

In what way is a sentence of death for someone and all of their descendants equal to the crime of disobedience?

The principle is encapsulated in the ultimate standard for judgement of like for like, "eye for eye....life for life".

This principle actually states that the punishment should never exceed the crime. Pity God doesn't keep to the same principle.

Mankind was lost due to the reckless act of a perfect man, the ransom price thus had to be set as one perfect man but all humans are descendents of Adam and born imperfect.

If the man was perfect then, like Jesus, he would not have been reckless in his acts. Regardless of their imperfection the descendants of Adam should not have to suffer punishment for his actions. We do not have to pay any penalty. If death is the consequence of our sins, then why do we also have to suffer for eternity in hell? If Jesus took on the sins of mankind then that should now be his penalty.

To sum up, the temporary death of Jesus did nothing. As I said before, if someone gives you a cheque to pay off your mortgage and subsequently cancels the cheque, your mortgage has not been paid off. The story is just window dressing for a seriously flawed concept. Mankind is not lost and there is no ransom we have to pay. It amazes me that people still buy into this.

[JehovahsWitness]

No human descendant of Adam could pay the ransom because the ransom had to be equal to that which caused of the problem.

In what way is a sentence of death for someone and all of their descendants equal to the crime of disobedience?

QUESTION How could Jesus' death be considered equal to Adam's sin of disobedience?

• Jesus didn't die for Adam's act of disobedience (Adam paid the price for his own crime of disobedience), the need for a ransom arose because Adam's sin/crime had repurcussions on his children. Only someone equal to Adam could legitimately correct the repurcussions of Adam's sin.

Adam was a perfect man; when he sinned (committed the crime of disobedience) he effectively sold his children into sin and death, since he carried in his loins the human race. His act of disobedience meant all his children would automatically be born imperfect and would inevitably sin. To save the children (Adam's descendants) a man equal to Adam would have to buy them back, only someone equal to what Adam was could do this, that is to say, a perfect human male.

If Jesus took on the sins of mankind then that should now be his penalty.

He took away mankind's sin in the sense that he paid for them; why shuold there be any penalty, you don't usually penalise someone for paying for something.



JW



FURTHER READING The Ransom​—God’s Greatest Gift
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... sacrifice/

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Who did Adam "kill"?
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[JehovahsWitness]

If the man was perfect then, like Jesus, he would not have been reckless in his acts.

If Adam and Eve were perfect, how could they sin? CAN a perfect being, sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 903#873903

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Were humans originally designed to live forever?
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