Make the mountains fit the tale?

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Zzyzx
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Make the mountains fit the tale?

Post by Zzyzx »

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When those who believe that the Noah flood tale is literal truth are informed that total amount of water available make that doubtful (at best), a typical response is, “The mountains were lower back then (a few thousand years ago). Not only does this display lack of knowledge of hydrology and geology but the claim is totally unsubstantiated – just made up to ‘explain’ the ancient tale of a worldwide flood.

There are about 1500 mountains over 1000 feet above sea level, 250 of them exceeding 20,000 feet, and one, Mt. Everest, that reaches 29,029 feet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _elevation

ALL of those (and all lesser elevation mountains) would have to be covered to meet the conditions specified in Genesis. It should also be noted that people are able to make their homes and communities at elevations over 15,000 feet and to frequent much higher elevations.
Genesis 7:19Finally, the waters completely inundated the earth, so that all the high mountains under all the heavens were covered. 20The waters rose and covered the mountaintops to a depth of fifteen cubits. 21And every creature that had moved upon the earth perished—birds, livestock, animals, every creature that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind. 22Of all that had been on dry land, everything that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23And every living thing on the face of the earth was destroyed—man and livestock, crawling creatures and birds of the air; they were blotted out from the earth, and only Noah remained, and those with him in the ark.
The text is very clear – water completely inundated the Earth, covered all high mountains, and wiped out every living thing on the face of the Earth.

If someone wants to claim that ‘the mountains were lower’:

1. How much lower?
2. What is the evidence to support that claim?
3. Did the mountains form rapidly in a few thousand years? Evidence?
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If you stop claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable unicorns, I will stop challenging your claim. Same goes for gods

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Re: Make the mountains fit the tale?

Post by 1213 »

Zzyzx wrote: 1. How much lower?
2. What is the evidence to support that claim?
3. Did the mountains form rapidly in a few thousand years? Evidence?
By what the Bible tells, the flood happened when the “fountains of great deep� burst open. This means, when earth (=dry land) was created it was formed on top of vast water layer. And when the flood came, that original continent collapsed and sunk. In that event modern continents were formed and also many orogenic mountains. Water level was right after that as the Bible tells, but later when the earth sunk further and all drowned things were compressed more, water level begun to decrease. One reason for that was also the ice age that was result of the flood and begun to store water to glaciers.

Here are few images that show the principle of how it happened:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/geology.html

That explains how it was possible to water to cover everything. And evidence is modern continents, oil and gas fields, orogenic mountains… …but still, it is matter of belief. I can’t make anyone believe what has happened in history. My goal was only to give the explanation how it happened.

Zzyzx
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Re: Make the mountains fit the tale?

Post by Zzyzx »

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1213 wrote: By what the Bible tells, the flood happened when the “fountains of great deep� burst open. This means, when earth (=dry land) was created it was formed on top of vast water layer. And when the flood came, that original continent collapsed and sunk.
It is now relatively well known that rock (continents) does not float on water. Even ancients likely grasped the concept.

Gravity is involved. Continental rock averages over 2.5 times as heavy per unit volume as water. Anyone can verify for themselves that rock does not float – using a pebble and a glass of water.
1213 wrote: In that event modern continents were formed and also many orogenic mountains.
Is this to say that continents and mountains are only a few thousand years old? Evidence?
1213 wrote: Water level was right after that as the Bible tells, but later when the earth sunk further and all drowned things were compressed more,
Earth shrank? Evidence?
1213 wrote: water level begun to decrease.
Where did that water go? Evidence?
1213 wrote: One reason for that was also the ice age that was result of the flood and begun to store water to glaciers.
Is this to say that the Earth’s glaciation (ice age) occurred only within the past few thousand years?
1213 wrote: Here are few images that show the principle of how it happened:
The images are quite imaginative – someone’s opinion. Kindly cite evidence to show that they are truthful and accurate representative of conditions depicted.
1213 wrote: That explains how it was possible to water to cover everything. And evidence is modern continents, oil and gas fields, orogenic mountains… …but still, it is matter of belief.
‘A matter of belief’ . . .

Belief is not substance in debate
1213 wrote: I can’t make anyone believe what has happened in history.
It might convince those who are predisposed to believe religious tales – in church or among fervent believers. I trust that few readers are impressed by unsupported speculation and imagination.
1213 wrote: My goal was only to give the explanation how it happened.
Very imaginative. Geologists, hydrologists, glaciologists and others who actually study real world conditions do not seem to agree.

Is it rational to suggest that those who study real world conditions are almost unanimously wrong and theists who don’t study the matter are right?

How did that work out for theists who claim(ed) astronomers were wrong about the Earth being center of the Solar System?
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If you stop claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable unicorns, I will stop challenging your claim. Same goes for gods

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

For a quick tutorial on science vs. religion, compare modern internet weather radar to ancient religious beliefs and superstitions about weather

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Re: Make the mountains fit the tale?

Post by 1213 »

Zzyzx wrote: It is now relatively well known that rock (continents) does not float on water. Even ancients likely grasped the concept.
Water has good strength against compression as you could know, if you would know how hydraulic systems work. If earth, which in Bible means dry land, was formed like a dome, water would not have escaped under it and could have kept earth so that it would not sink. However, Bible tells about “pillars of earth�, it is possible that they helped earth (dry land) to remain on top of the vast water storage.
Zzyzx wrote:
1213 wrote: Water level was right after that as the Bible tells, but later when the earth sunk further and all drowned things were compressed more,
Earth shrank? Evidence?
No, I didn’t say earth shrank. I said earth sunk. And as said before, earth meant in the Bible dry land, not planet earth. When the dry land that was stretched on top of water was broken, it collapsed and sunk.
Zzyzx wrote:
1213 wrote: water level begun to decrease.
Where did that water go? Evidence?
Into glaciers. Other reason for decreasing water level was that the dry land that sunk, was compressed more because of the weight of the water, which caused the level of new ocean floor sink deeper, which then lowered the water level in higher areas.
Zzyzx wrote:
1213 wrote: That explains how it was possible to water to cover everything. And evidence is modern continents, oil and gas fields, orogenic mountains… …but still, it is matter of belief.
‘A matter of belief’ . . .
Belief is not substance in debate
Can you give anything better than beliefs here, please show one example?

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Re: Make the mountains fit the tale?

Post by Zzyzx »

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[Replying to post 4 by 1213]

Very imaginative speculation. Have people who actually study such things (geologists, hydrologists, physicists, chemists) provided information to support this 'version' of Earth history?

Did all proposed happen within the past few thousand years?
1213 wrote:
Can you give anything better than beliefs here, please show one example?
'Belief' is NOT required to realize that continental rock does not float on water.

Belief IS required to propose that continents floated on water.
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Non-Theist

If you stop claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable unicorns, I will stop challenging your claim. Same goes for gods

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

For a quick tutorial on science vs. religion, compare modern internet weather radar to ancient religious beliefs and superstitions about weather

"Demand money with the threat of violence and you'll get arrested. Do it with the threat of eternal damnation and it's tax deductible"

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Re: Make the mountains fit the tale?

Post by 1213 »

Zzyzx wrote:Very imaginative speculation. Have people who actually study such things (geologists, hydrologists, physicists, chemists) provided information to support this 'version' of Earth history?
That the version of history would be true, we would need to find several things in nature that are:
- orogenic mountains
- oil, coal and gas fields
- several continents that would be result of one single continent
- vast sediment formations
- marine fossils on mountain areas
- vast glaciers (ice age)

If geologists, hydrologists, physicists, chemists can find those in nature, we have support for the version of earths history that tells there was single continent formed on top of water that collapsed and sunk.
Zzyzx wrote: Did all proposed happen within the past few thousand years?
I think it is possible it happened within less than 100000 years. And we really have no good reason to believe in older earth.
Zzyzx wrote:'Belief' is NOT required to realize that continental rock does not float on water.
Luckily, I am not claiming rock floats, all though even steel floats, if it is in right form. And steel is heavier than rock.

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Re: Make the mountains fit the tale?

Post by Zzyzx »

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1213 wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:Very imaginative speculation. Have people who actually study such things (geologists, hydrologists, physicists, chemists) provided information to support this 'version' of Earth history?
That the version of history would be true, we would need to find several things in nature that are:
- orogenic mountains
- oil, coal and gas fields
- several continents that would be result of one single continent
- vast sediment formations
- marine fossils on mountain areas
- vast glaciers (ice age)

If geologists, hydrologists, physicists, chemists can find those in nature, we have support for the version of earths history that tells there was single continent formed on top of water that collapsed and sunk.
Have you personally actually studied the above? I have, and have taught Earth Science at university level. NOTHING I ever encountered suggests ‘continent formed on top of water’.
1213 wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: Did all proposed happen within the past few thousand years?
I think it is possible it happened within less than 100000 years. And we really have no good reason to believe in older earth.
Those who have studied geology, paleontology, glaciology, fossil fuels, etc HAVE ‘good reason to believe in older Earth’. Many who study ancient mythology and belief systems dispute scientific studies citing their favorite ancient tales.
1213 wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:'Belief' is NOT required to realize that continental rock does not float on water.
Luckily, I am not claiming rock floats, all though even steel floats, if it is in right form. And steel is heavier than rock.
Is this to suggest that continents were formed to float? Evidence? OR is this mere speculation?
.
Non-Theist

If you stop claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable unicorns, I will stop challenging your claim. Same goes for gods

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

For a quick tutorial on science vs. religion, compare modern internet weather radar to ancient religious beliefs and superstitions about weather

"Demand money with the threat of violence and you'll get arrested. Do it with the threat of eternal damnation and it's tax deductible"

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Re: Make the mountains fit the tale?

Post by Elijah John »

Zzyzx wrote:]
Those who have studied geology, paleontology, glaciology, fossil fuels, etc HAVE ‘good reason to believe in older Earth’. Many who study ancient mythology and belief systems dispute scientific studies citing their favorite ancient tales.
Agree with your aguments on this thread, Z, and on the first part of your assertion quoted here. However, I would say that most who study mythology and ancient belief systems do not take them literally, or without cultural context. Academics anyway.
Folks like Joseph Campbell and his students and his PBS audience. That is exactly the point of mythology. To not take the myth at face value, but rather to extract timeless and universal themes and lessons from their stories.

People who study the ancient myths, do not "dispute scientific studies citing their favorite ancient tales". Only literalists do.

I like the JD Crossan quote in your signature. I think he would endorse Campbell's (and many other mythologists) approach. If the Bible can be viewed that way, as myth for the purpose of Spiritual inspiration, it need not be dismissed as "superstitious" or without modern relevance or value.

It's when we regard the Bible as a book of science that we run into trouble. ;)
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Zzyzx
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Re: Make the mountains fit the tale?

Post by Zzyzx »

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Elijah John wrote: It's when we regard the Bible as a book of science that we run into trouble.
If this was the prevailing attitude in Christendom, I would have no objection.

However, as evidenced in this thread and elsewhere, many 'learn' science from the Bible -- and publicly announce their 'knowledge'; attempting to dispute or discredit those who actually study science.
.
Non-Theist

If you stop claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable unicorns, I will stop challenging your claim. Same goes for gods

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

For a quick tutorial on science vs. religion, compare modern internet weather radar to ancient religious beliefs and superstitions about weather

"Demand money with the threat of violence and you'll get arrested. Do it with the threat of eternal damnation and it's tax deductible"

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Re: Make the mountains fit the tale?

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 2 by 1213]

Yes, In school I was told that there was not enough water to cover the land
But 'springs of the deep' is mentioned in the Bible before rain.

https://www.natureworldnews.com/article ... -crust.htm

^
""If [the stored water] wasn't there, it would be on the surface of the Earth, and mountaintops would be the only land poking out," [Steve Jacobsen from Northwestern University] said."

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